Why Gen Z Struggles with Israel

01:00:01.000 — 01:00:04.480 · Nic
Israel is such a stumbling block of conversation for Gen Z.

01:00:05.200 — 01:00:32.240 · Tabatha
It’s not an easy time to be a teenager and a young adult. And then you add in these accelerators like the internet. It’s just kind of chaos. There’s so many voices, there’s so much going on, and there’s a lot of stories being told. We are living in a time there’s this kind of swing to this polarization like we’ve talked about, but the younger generations are the ones that are showing themselves to be way more open to extreme political ends of the spectrum.

01:00:32.320 — 01:01:10.270 · Nic
True, right. There’s convergence. People call this horseshoe theory, where extreme movements sit linearly like this way apart from one another. Right. But then on certain issues, they begin to bend and move towards one another, and Israel and Jewish people and conversations therein. That’s where there’s a lot of movement ideologically between far left, far right.

I really didn’t think that I would live at least this early in my life, to hear the things that were being said before the Holocaust being repeated again. Like you’ve heard them before. But those people were always like, oh my word, that’s so fringe and kooky. Now it’s being mainstreamed.

01:01:10.350 — 01:01:11.510 · Tabatha
Mainstreamed.

01:01:11.870 — 01:01:20.510 · Nic
The Bible talks a lot about Israel and the Jewish people. So how do I merge these two realities of what I’m hearing in culture with what I believe the Bible says?

01:01:20.550 — 01:01:26.230 · Tabatha
It comes back to the gospel. You really have to combat a story with another story.

01:01:34.790 — 01:02:51.810 · Nic
Hi, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Covenant and Conflict podcast, where we look at ancient truths and modern issues, and how they often sit in conflict with one another or tension with one another. The heart of this podcast is to help you navigate through those types of challenges, where we’re looking at covenantal promises and modern issues that are sitting in conflict with those.

How do we have conversations about things that are conflicting things or topics of conflict. How do we have those conversations in a productive, fruitful way, in a kind way, with one another, with people that we know? And then how do we stay faithful to the promises of Scripture? And this is obviously a resource of the Gateway Center for Israel.

And we believe that at the heart of the biblical narrative is the promises that God made, the covenantal promises that God made to Israel and the Jewish people, that we as non-Jews, myself included, are added into through our faith in Jesus, who’s Israel’s Messiah and King, the head of the church. So as we look through these issues together, we’re always keeping Israel as in a way, and our anchor into reality, not the modern state of Israel, but the promises that God made to Israel, the people, Israel, the land, and the future promises and how that wraps up.

So it’s a way for us to understand the Bible, and I’m honored to have my wife with me again here today.

01:02:51.850 — 01:02:52.730 · Tabatha
I’m glad to be back.

01:02:52.770 — 01:03:09.320 · Nic
Yeah, we we made it through our first podcast together and we thought, let’s do another one. Yeah. Why not? And any time you’re going to probably realize this, if Tabitha is on the show, we’re going to have show notes because Tabitha thinks lots of deep things and I fly by the seat of my pants in life.

01:03:09.320 — 01:03:09.760 · Tabatha
Do it so.

01:03:09.760 — 01:03:10.720 · Nic
Well. You don’t.

01:03:10.760 — 01:03:11.920 · Tabatha
I don’t do it well.

01:03:11.960 — 01:03:12.800 · Nic
Yeah, yeah.

01:03:12.840 — 01:03:13.720 · Tabatha
I need a guide.

01:03:13.760 — 01:03:21.040 · Nic
This conflict, like covenant and conflict, we have a covenant in marriage. And we have conflict too. Like how I fly by the seat of my pants. And you don’t.

01:03:21.200 — 01:03:26.120 · Tabatha
Believe it or not, though, it’s because you’re more focused than me and I. My mind is like a pinball machine.

01:03:26.480 — 01:03:27.160 · Nic
That’s true.

01:03:27.160 — 01:03:27.920 · Tabatha
I need a guide.

01:03:27.960 — 01:03:40.240 · Nic
Yeah, like when you ask me, the plants and I go from my my, my, my natural state is to go a e l r’s right. And yours is more natural to go a, b, c.

01:03:40.520 — 01:03:42.400 · Tabatha
D to my own exhaustion.

01:03:43.240 — 01:03:44.000 · Nic
Hey, it’s a gift to.

01:03:44.000 — 01:03:50.760 · Tabatha
Me, especially when I’m writing papers or anything like that. I’m like, oh please, I wish I could just skip and I can’t. I’m conflicted. It’s good, I have confidence.

01:03:50.800 — 01:04:01.430 · Nic
Hey, I’m becoming more like you after 18 years. You’re becoming more like me and maybe like 18 more years from now, when we have celebrate 36 years of marriage, we’re almost going to be indistinguishable. Be the same person.

01:04:01.430 — 01:04:03.270 · Tabatha
But still distinct in mutual blessing.

01:04:03.510 — 01:04:38.790 · Nic
That’s true. That’s true. Maybe you’ll be the one going from A to E to K to what? I hope so. And I’ll be the one being like, no, I need the plan step by step. I’ll be an old cranky guy. That’s true. I’ll be more out of my own way of doing it. So today we’re going to go through a conversation that I think many of you would be interested in.

And either you’re personally interested in it or there’s somebody in your household that’s interested in it, somebody that you know, that’s interested in it. And it’s this idea that generation Z, Gen Z is what they’re called, because generation Y is partly what you and I are, right?

01:04:38.830 — 01:04:41.550 · Tabatha
Yeah. Millennials older. We’re older millennial older millennials.

01:04:41.550 — 01:04:57.700 · Nic
So basically the 80s forward is Gen Y millennials. And then Gen X is like mid 60s to the early 80s. Right. So Gen Z are those who’ve been born I don’t remember what the breakup is like I think mid 90s or like early late late 90s, early 2000.

01:04:57.700 — 01:04:58.260 · Tabatha
This up first.

01:04:58.260 — 01:04:59.060 · Nic
I know right? Yeah.

01:04:59.100 — 01:05:00.700 · Tabatha
But we have been thinking about teenagers.

01:05:00.700 — 01:05:17.180 · Nic
We have an older Gen Z child, right? We have a 14 year old who’s who’s like a Casper like we are where they’re like partly Gen Z, partly Gen Alpha, which is the new because two of our other kids are Gen Alpha. That’s true. They’re definitely more in the next generation. But Gen Z are the ones who obviously are are becoming.

01:05:17.380 — 01:05:18.300 · Tabatha
Leaders and young adults.

01:05:18.300 — 01:05:24.780 · Nic
Teenagers and young adults. And they’re the ones really wrestling through a lot of issues of faith. And the church is having.

01:05:24.940 — 01:05:26.540 · Tabatha
A lot of challenges right now.

01:05:26.740 — 01:05:59.960 · Nic
Yeah, and the church is having a ton of conversations about what is Gen Z interested in, how do we reach Gen Z? What are the things we can learn from Gen Z? So I think the heart of what we want to talk about in this podcast today is how can we walk with Gen Z as Christians and walk with them through some of the challenges that they’re having at this phase of life?

And I’ll just start by saying, for me personally, I don’t know how you feel about this. I feel like a young adult. The young adulthood phase of my life was probably the hardest phase of my life. Yeah. Like from 18 until you and I got married when we were 25. I was 25. You were younger.

01:05:59.960 — 01:06:01.200 · Tabatha
But that was a hard transition.

01:06:01.240 — 01:07:03.790 · Nic
Oh my gosh. Like, I feel like I went into so many deep ditches just like and like. And that was part of the part. The process that was so hard is that on one hand, you’re like, life is amazing. I’m going to all these games with my friends and I have not a care in the world. But at the same time you’re like, what am I going to do with my life?

And oh my word. You know, and you’re starting to honestly to come online to like the world’s complicated. Mhm. Like all these things that I believed in this sterilized environment that I grew up in. Now people good people die early. What do I do with that. Right. Like how do I really believe about God. Like, you just ask a lot of questions, right?

And they’re formative. So, um, we want to talk through that. And, and, and obviously Israel is a key part of the conversation that Gen Z is having. And it’s I would say it’s really being thrust on them. Right. Like, they’re the people that are our age. Um, and older millennials, Gen Xers and Boomers, um, are really thrusting this conversation on Gen Z.

Um, and so they’re having to navigate through it without having a lot of really trustworthy guides.

01:07:04.030 — 01:07:13.070 · Tabatha
And the Christians, it has a particular interest because it’s regarding Israel and the Jewish people. And we have, you know, our the roots of our faith there.

01:07:13.110 — 01:07:34.710 · Nic
That’s right. Yeah. So that that’s just a construct here is that this is obviously Israel is the core of what we do as the gateway center for Israel. But we also understand that as you understand Israel, you will actually understand the Bible. And as you understand the Bible more, you’ll understand what God’s plans and purposes are with Israel and the Jewish people, that there’s a holistic nature to this.

So we’ve talked about.

01:07:34.710 — 01:07:42.070 · Tabatha
This, you know, how can this conversation come together with what Gen Z is experiencing and what they’re navigating? That’s what we’re wanting to do today. You know.

01:07:42.110 — 01:07:55.020 · Nic
And I think one of the things that Tabitha and I have learned, because if you didn’t tune in to the last podcast. So Tabitha and I lived in Israel for a year where I got a master’s degree. We moved over there with our then three year old daughter. Had you had a child there? I did not have a child.

01:07:55.060 — 01:07:55.740 · Tabatha
We had a child there.

01:07:55.780 — 01:07:57.900 · Nic
Well, we did, but you had the child.

01:07:58.060 — 01:08:05.180 · Tabatha
The son was born there. It was really an amazing experience. Yeah. Um, it was, it was it was a big adventure.

01:08:05.220 — 01:08:09.740 · Nic
And then we been to Israel a lot. We’ve been a part of tours. We’ve helped lead tours.

01:08:09.740 — 01:08:10.780 · Tabatha
Yeah, we’ve learned a lot.

01:08:10.820 — 01:08:44.780 · Nic
Yeah. And one of the things that is really clear, like before Covid and then the war with Hamas and the war in Iran now has really made traveling to Israel problematic, is that for young people, going to Israel is so life changing. It’s transforming because you get a Bible like this, and we’re trying to teach our kids the Bible, and it’s this just these thin pieces of paper.

And so it’s it’s really an idea. We’re trying to teach them, in a way, ideas. And then you go to Israel and you’re like, this isn’t an idea. This is a real place where real people had real experiences with a real God.

01:08:44.820 — 01:08:45.260 · Tabatha
Right?

01:08:45.260 — 01:08:46.940 · Nic
And everything becomes like, really?

01:08:46.940 — 01:09:12.000 · Tabatha
360 it’s concrete and it Really enlightens our perspective. It changes how we think. And, um. It’s it’s just an encounter with him. That’s the beauty of the land and the people of the Bible and the Jewish people, and that Israel as a nation is it’s meant to be a witness to him, their God, and an encounter with him.

And you do experience that as a Christian whenever you get to visit?

01:09:12.040 — 01:09:30.160 · Nic
Yeah. So getting to go there for at a young age, then you really get rooted into God’s real. The Bible’s real. And it isn’t just about Israel, right? It’s I think one of our Messianic Jewish friends says it’s a place of aligning, like God aligns the world in Israel. Oh, yeah, he aligns them to him.

01:09:30.200 — 01:09:31.640 · Tabatha
Yeah, he he loves all nations.

01:09:31.680 — 01:09:49.070 · Nic
He does. And he aligns the nations in Israel. And we see this even at the end of times, Jesus will come back and he’ll sit and rule and judge the nations in Israel. So he’s going to align the nations. Jerusalem, um, who’s righteous, who’s not. So it’s a place to be really aligned. And it’s just interesting.

I’m having this thought right now. I’m skating into the deep end already.

01:09:49.110 — 01:09:50.950 · Tabatha
Go ahead. I love the deep end.

01:09:51.030 — 01:10:23.350 · Nic
That, like Israel, is such a stumbling block. It’s become such a stumbling block of conversation for Gen Z Christians. Like they’re being forced to actually have like, positions on things that are so nuanced and that don’t matter to their daily life, and it’s causing them to have a negative, um, a negative perception about the people of Israel and the place of Israel.

And it’s I’m realizing this, that if the devil can dissuade them from going to Israel, he’s actually dissuading them from having a biblical worldview.

01:10:23.390 — 01:10:57.900 · Tabatha
It it really is all woven together. It doesn’t mean you can’t have a biblical worldview without having gone to Israel, but it so grounds your worldview when you do. So yeah, it’s really, you know, and it’s not that, um, you were saying thing. They’re being talking about things that don’t matter. It’s not that it to their daily life.

I think that in a healthy way, it does all matter to their daily life. Um, it’s just that there’s a lot of kind of irrational conversation going on, and they’re being told things and that it’s maybe Israel and the Jews fault, and that does actually not touch this, their daily life at all. You know, so that’s I think, what you meant.

01:10:57.940 — 01:11:13.980 · Nic
Yeah, exactly. That’s really what it is. So. All right. So we’re going to we’re going to set this up. We’ll kind of move this through. It’s sort of a three part conversation where we want to talk about specific things. So the first part really is just where are we at in society. Like way what widening out like the state of faith.

01:11:14.020 — 01:13:20.990 · Tabatha
Yeah. Well, I think we all know over the past, however many decades, um, you know, I, I really haven’t studied just the arc of faith in America, but we are let’s just talk about what we’re experiencing right now because there’s the what? And then there’s the why. But we could also really, you know, maybe the what’s happening behind the scenes or why is it happening.

All I know and all I think we all know, is that we are in a moment that there has been a general over the last number of decades. Decline in faith. Yeah, right. And also just a decline in stable communities in general. There’s been a lot more polarization. Um, again, we’re not experts on this. Let’s just say how we see it.

You know, and there has obviously, we’ve heard this a lot, but it is very relevant, the breakdown of family, which has happened in the modern era. Yep. And, um, so just the world is changing fast and humans are trying to keep up right now. It’s where we’re at. And therefore, for whatever reasons that we won’t go into because we’re not experts on this, but we know that there is definitely that there has been a loss of deep trust and belonging, and young people are feeling it.

Yeah, they are feeling it. And these things, that sense of trust and belonging, uh, they actually are what tie us to reality. So they’re not just a feeling of, oh, I wish I felt feelings of trust. It’s actually what keeps us rooted in who we are, rooted in our worldview, how we see the world around us, how we relate to people, how we relate up if we believe in God or not, how we relate to God.

So, you know, we’re we’re in a place that’s it’s not an easy time to be a teenager or a young adult. And then you add in these accelerators like the internet. Yeah. And things are just there. It’s just kind of chaos. There’s so many voices, there’s so much going on and there’s a lot of stories being told.

01:13:21.070 — 01:13:39.950 · Nic
Yeah, it’s like there’s this what I think what one of the things that the internet does, the social media, etc., the accessibility of information is that it doesn’t ever let anything set like concrete. Right. So because you’re like, you’re constantly being your attention is constantly being competed with and so.

01:13:39.990 — 01:13:40.750 · Tabatha
Constant input.

01:13:40.790 — 01:13:44.260 · Nic
You can’t like let anything like set and Harden.

01:13:44.300 — 01:13:44.740 · Tabatha
Do you want.

01:13:44.740 — 01:14:09.620 · Nic
It. Yeah. So because it’s just constantly as you’re as you’re about to have a thought that like starts to maybe go down into some of your identity. Like I want to think and like really understand who I am as a believer, then it’s going to be assaulted with something else, some other piece of information, a different point of view.

And so when you’re in a formative age, you need time to let things to let things set right. But there’s so much coming at people.

01:14:09.660 — 01:14:10.260 · Tabatha
Oh, yeah.

01:14:10.420 — 01:14:13.220 · Nic
That it’s tough because it’s fighting for focus all the time.

01:14:13.260 — 01:14:42.460 · Tabatha
Right. And we are I want to I really want to, you know, just say how it’s a legitimate time where we are. Things are changing from generation to generation. We’ve had these this interesting changeover of leadership from older generations to young. And we are in a time where young people are not living the same lives as their parents.

There’s a lot more economic struggles. People talk about this all the time, you know, but it’s real. And relationships are harder in the digital era.

01:14:42.490 — 01:14:43.170 · Nic
Yeah.

01:14:43.330 — 01:15:12.450 · Tabatha
You know, and and then community’s harder. There’s so much more loneliness. Um, people are do not experience a joy when we’re on our phones all day. We’re just not happy. Right. You know, so you have all that going on? Um, and and there’s. And people talk about this all the time, but there is a lot less trust in the government and institutions, and people really are looking for someone they can trust.

And it’s not just so they can understand it all. They’re looking for someone they can trust so they can understand what’s going on with them.

01:15:12.490 — 01:15:21.970 · Nic
Yeah. True. That’s true. So this opens people up then to be susceptible to more and more extreme ideologies.

01:15:22.010 — 01:16:16.070 · Tabatha
Yes. Yeah. Right. Yeah. The younger generations. And I think that’s why, you know, part of why we wanted to talk about this. Because I just have compassion on what it’s like to be a kid, a teenager or a young adult right now. And then we are living in a time there’s this kind of swing to this polarization like we’ve talked about, but the younger generations are the ones that are showing themselves to be way more open to extreme political ends of the spectrum.

Even if they don’t take on that ideology completely, they’re at least open to it in a friendly way. And, you know, we have to be go ahead and say it concretely. It’s more of a socialism on the left, you know, that, you see, is happening in America. This is America. This is an American conversation. But it’s also, I’m sure, relevant hopefully to to anyone.

But then on the right and I think there is patterns here worldwide. But on the right here where we are, then there’s more of their right wing extremism going on.

01:16:16.470 — 01:16:18.190 · Nic
And very nationalistic.

01:16:18.230 — 01:16:30.190 · Tabatha
Right. And why are we talking about this? Because a lot of people are aware that there is a growing issue of anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism, um, in both sides of the spectrum.

01:16:30.230 — 01:16:33.190 · Nic
Yeah. That’s right. That’s like this is one place where it.

01:16:33.190 — 01:16:36.350 · Tabatha
Gets opposite as they are. And then yet why is this true?

01:16:36.390 — 01:16:58.100 · Nic
Right. This convergence people call this horseshoe theory where extreme movements sit linearly like this way apart from one another, right? But then on certain issues, they begin to bend and move towards one another. And Israel and Jewish people and conversations therein. That’s where there’s a lot of movement ideologically between far left, far right.

Right.

01:16:58.140 — 01:17:22.300 · Tabatha
Yeah. And this, you know, it’s it’s unfortunately it’s a pattern. Yeah. And knowing history shows you that pattern, the ebbs and flows of civilizations. This is actually symptomatic of something that happens. Um, but Jews and Israel are. This is not the first time that they’re being cast as the the source of problems in our society.

Yeah. But it’s happening on both sides of the spectrum. So that’s interesting right there, you know.

01:17:22.339 — 01:17:33.860 · Nic
Yeah. So using this as as kind of a framework. So there’s a vacuum that, um, is built through isolationism, a lack of connection and a lack of belonging.

01:17:33.900 — 01:17:42.090 · Tabatha
Yeah. Isolation, like you said. Yeah. It’s just created in this. It’s just there’s a lot of reasons we can’t go into the why, but we all know this is being experienced and.

01:17:42.130 — 01:17:54.210 · Nic
Yeah. So then it opens people up to being susceptible to more extreme ideology. Right. Because they’re searching for something that gives them meaning. Yeah. Or it helps them understand the world.

01:17:54.250 — 01:18:00.810 · Tabatha
Yeah. They’re not just searching for things that make sense. They’re actually searching for some sort of comfort in what they’re experiencing. It’s hard.

01:18:00.850 — 01:18:21.650 · Nic
Yeah. Yeah. Right. And some of it’s hard. Like if you’re a young adult, like to get a house. Almost impossible. Right? It’s really hard to fill your car up with gas. Well, to buy a car. Oh my word. Right. Like, just to be able to buy a new car. It’s so expensive. Um, to find a job so expensive. So all of these things put pressure.

01:18:21.690 — 01:18:21.930 · Tabatha
Yeah.

01:18:21.970 — 01:18:26.210 · Nic
Like. And and it does. It makes it harder for them to, like, live in the real world. Yeah. Right.

01:18:26.250 — 01:18:52.030 · Tabatha
And then we do see these more extreme voices on different ends of the political spectrum that are very loud voices in this generation right now that have a lot of followers. And y’all, to be honest, the last few years because, okay, you go back five years. Young people. Okay. The topic of Israel and Jewish people was a topic for pastors, people who like to study the Bible.

01:18:52.070 — 01:18:52.630 · Nic
Yeah.

01:18:52.670 — 01:19:27.230 · Tabatha
I mean, that’s it. Maybe some politics there, of course, but like, most people were like, oh, cool, cool. Yeah. That’s cool. No. Now all I just was at our church’s youth conference and had just so many great conversations with these kids. They had really good questions, hard questions. They came with really good questions because they’re grappling with this.

Every one of them feels like they need to have a view. They need to, you know, maybe take on a certain perspective and figure figure out how they see things, how they feel about things, because it’s just it’s what’s being talked about.

01:19:27.270 — 01:19:47.820 · Nic
That’s really true. Like when I graduated high school, back when the dinosaurs roamed the Earth, is what our 14 year old would say. Um, that I that there was a huge wave of violence in Israel that broke out the the second Intifada is what that was called. Right. Like suicide bombings. Bad. It was bad. It was on the news all the time.

But as I graduated high school, I’m like, nobody’s asking me about that.

01:19:47.860 — 01:19:48.460 · Tabatha
That’s true.

01:19:48.460 — 01:20:06.500 · Nic
And honestly, I just thought about, like, the 1 or 2, like, nerdy dudes in my high school class that were going to run for office some day. Like, I’m like, yeah, they probably think about this kind of stuff, you know? Yeah. But for me, I’m like, it didn’t come up at family tables conversations. It didn’t come up in the halls of school at all.

We were like, yeah, Middle East way over there. Weird, I don’t know.

01:20:06.500 — 01:20:22.980 · Tabatha
And now it’s like the central topic of, you know, it’s just it’s the central topic of both political far ends, very far ends of the political spectrum. Yeah. And then it’s also all over TikTok and social media. Yeah. It’s just everywhere. There’s and there’s a lot of voices that are really ready to feel the void.

01:20:22.980 — 01:20:23.300 · Nic
They feel.

01:20:23.300 — 01:20:54.010 · Tabatha
Though. So we’re dealing with a lot of so this younger generation and all of us are dealing with honestly like who we are, you know, what is our purpose? How do we, um, find purpose in this moment. That’s challenging. I don’t understand it. Help me understand. And then there’s these voices that are extreme, filling the void.

And they are saying some really crazy things, things that are not rational. And I think that’s been the question I’ve asked myself. So how would anybody

01:20:55.090 — 01:21:55.270 · Tabatha
who’s, like, seeking the truth and want to understand things, believe some of these things, some of these claims? Yeah. You know. Yeah. And and so what I’ve realized, you know, and and I don’t want to be skipping ahead in our conversation. But what I realized is it’s actually not about rational. It’s not about really the truth as as much as it is finding like what?

This this what is causing this? Who’s our enemy that’s causing these problems and how how I’m feeling right now. And so these voices are saying, hey, I actually have I have a clear worldview for you. And it really explain some things. And I have this enemy for you to focus on. and and that is so comforting.

Yeah. And it gives this, oh this like validation. And then it also gives this like significance to whatever. Whatever these voices are there, they’re using it in order to try and rally it for whatever cause they have and whatever power that they want to gain or maintain. Right. You know.

01:21:55.310 — 01:22:31.310 · Nic
Yeah. So what’s being generated then is there’s these voices saying what you’re feeling is real. So the validating. Yeah. You feel this way. Right. And you’re like, yeah, I feel that way. And then they’re following that up with that’s wrong. It’s so wrong that you have to feel that way. No one should have to feel like they can’t buy a house.

No one should feel like someone, some immigrant took their job, right? Like they can’t get a job because an immigrant took it, right. These are things people say. So then the voices that are speaking that language then begin to knit together a victim mentality.

01:22:31.350 — 01:22:31.710 · Tabatha
Right.

01:22:31.750 — 01:23:02.300 · Nic
It’s where it’s easier to blame someone else for your hardship. And then you rally together and you’re like, oh. Immigrants are the problem. They’re the ones doing all the wrong things. And then I need a hero to deliver Islam. I need a hero to deliver me from my oppressor, which is X, Y or Z. The Jews. Right.

The Jews do this. The Jews do that. They. They’re the ones sowing pornography into everything. Yeah, they’re the like. These are the lies, people.

01:23:02.500 — 01:23:23.500 · Tabatha
Kosher food is more healthy than regular food because they’re keeping us all enslaved or. Yeah, all these wild. I mean, we like they’re crazy. There’s no need to even repeat them on this podcast because we have a different focus. But the claims lately, like about Charlie Kirk and stuff are have been nuts.

Yeah. They are so irrational. Yeah. You know what I mean? And so I’m just kind of like, what? Why would you. But how can you, you know, anyway.

01:23:23.580 — 01:23:38.730 · Nic
The heart of what we’re trying to do here is to say they are irrational, but people are believing them, right? And so we need to move with understanding towards like understanding why? Yes. Like, that’s a crazy thing to think. And some of our some, some of our kids friends think some of these things.

01:23:38.770 — 01:23:39.370 · Tabatha
That’s true. Yeah.

01:23:39.410 — 01:23:40.090 · Nic
And I love.

01:23:40.090 — 01:23:41.730 · Tabatha
Them I love them, yeah. I don’t judge.

01:23:41.770 — 01:23:52.690 · Nic
Them at all because I’m like, that’s crazy. But then at the same time, we’re trying to help our teenager like, hey, that’s a crazy thought, right? But you got to understand, there’s something going on inside of them that’s putting them in a place to be able to believe that stuff.

01:23:52.730 — 01:24:57.600 · Tabatha
Right. And it is. I will say it is a trap to fall into, um, a mindset of blame. Yeah. And there’s a comfort that comes with it. But it really like it keeps you fixated on the past and not the future. And it does not. These voices are not trying to impart any hope or, um, or give them a sense of personal responsibility, of resiliency.

You’re capable. Yes. Yes. You haven’t always had an easy life. Maybe bad things have happened to you. Maybe things have been done wrong to you. That’s all of us. But it’s at that point we have a choice. Yeah. And so they’re they’re calling them to look back and go until this thing that your enemy is essentially whatever the enemy is, is essentially like torn down.

Then you won’t be able to move into your future. Right. And that’s how people get stuck. And unfortunately, that mindset of being a victim or of blaming others, it it touches on our identity. It partners. It goes down right next to our identity. You know what I mean? And and, um, fortunately, um, it starts to

01:24:58.840 — 01:25:00.520 · Tabatha
twist that, I guess you could say.

01:25:00.560 — 01:25:33.020 · Nic
Yeah. And actually keeps us from being fruitful and productive because, God, God’s basically like the story of what God is saying is like, I am with you and you will face many enemies, you’ll face many battles, but I’m with you and I can help you succeed. Success doesn’t have to be an earthly metric, but God is basically like, I have a plan and purpose for your life.

My plan and purpose will be accomplished so you can partner with me and get through hard things. And God’s going to teach us a lot about ourselves and some of our own hardship is self-inflicted because of our own choices.

01:25:33.060 — 01:26:51.010 · Tabatha
Sure, we can take responsibility and not have to feel that shame that comes because I think a lot of times we go into the blame because we’re so scared of the shame, because if we don’t blame someone else and say someone else is bad, yeah, then we might have. We feel like that. The other choice is to say, oh, it’s all our fault, so we must be bad.

Of course, this is not. This is a false dichotomy or whatever they say. And so then, because we’re so scared of the shame, we simply turn outward and just we, we blame others and and unfortunately, this, that action can give or those, those beliefs, I guess they can give us this sense of control and significance, you know what I mean?

But then we’re really only mobilized to tear down. We’re always looking backward. We’re never actually building society, building our family, building community, even building ourselves. Honestly, we’re not forward thinking people. Yeah. You know, and that right there is should be a red flag. Yeah.

Of these of these voices coming in. I’m like saying, if you’re listening to this and the sources that you’re listening to, you know, think about that and perhaps say, oh, yeah, that’s true. They’re really only only calling me mobilizing me. But it’s more to tear down. But do they really have a plan for what they see is a good future?

And in building something for our country or for whatever we’re talking, you know, whatever framework you’re in.

01:26:51.050 — 01:26:59.010 · Nic
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So this is this is the trap. People don’t. Younger people especially, but older people too, don’t realize they will fall into. Yeah, right.

01:26:59.050 — 01:27:00.090 · Tabatha
Oh, we all can.

01:27:00.130 — 01:27:27.320 · Nic
And then it leads to this destructive tearing down, not building up, blaming others for your problems, not taking ownership of your own life. Like, we were listening to a podcast recently and this guy was talking about how his parents immigrated here, um, from another country, had nothing, couldn’t rub two nickels together, you know, to create anything.

And they never blamed anyone. They were this basically like, hey, we have one another and our life is really hard.

01:27:27.320 — 01:27:35.200 · Tabatha
And their their life had a lot of meaning because they decided to focus on someone beside themselves and they focused on the next generation and.

01:27:35.440 — 01:27:51.680 · Nic
Providing opportunity for their kid who’s now very successful. Yes. Um, but it wasn’t like all of our problems are caused by somebody else. It was we’re going to own what we can, and we’re going to work really hard. Yeah. And and if you’re a believer, then you can trust God, too. And partner with God, too.

So. All right, let’s go.

01:27:51.720 — 01:28:20.760 · Tabatha
You know, I was just going to say they weren’t they weren’t even Christian. But they but that was because they don’t think so individualistic either. It’s not just all about them. You know, they they do have a sense of something bigger than themselves. And for them was their family or their community. Yeah.

But because they were willing to give themselves for it. Yeah. Then there’s actually the good fruit because that’s actually a very that’s a good thing from God that we would do that, you know. So even when we’re not following him, we can still bear fruit from that. And they did. That’s true. You know, so.

01:28:20.800 — 01:29:24.180 · Nic
So let’s bring this home to a conclusion then. Yeah. So we’ve identified, you know, a decline of faith. Like there’s environmental, existential things happening and that leads people into a in a structure and ecosystem, especially younger people, where they’re wrestling through these things and they’re exposed to idealists.

I mean, an ideological extremism, does that then cause them to think they’re there? It’s very therapeutic. And like, hey, what you’re going through is wrong, right? It’s very real. And then here’s the person that’s responsible for it. And to to kind of wrap this down. Now, the person that’s often becoming responsible for this now is the Jewish person.

So for Israel, a lot of what we’re hearing is shocking, you and I, because we didn’t think I really I mean, really I really didn’t think that I would live at least this early in my life to hear the things that were being said before the Holocaust being repeated again. I know, like you heard them before, but those people were.

I was like, oh my word, that’s so fringe and kooky. Now it’s being mainstreamed. Mainstreamed, like blaming.

01:29:24.220 — 01:29:24.690 · Tabatha
Millions of.

01:29:24.690 — 01:30:02.970 · Nic
Followers. So why do we. Why do we feel like it’s. It’s Jewish people that have become the source of people’s problems. Right. So you have people that are thinking like, oh, Israel’s. This is the source of my problems because America spends money on, um, helping Israel with foreign aid. So I don’t have a job because we’re spending all this money to send it to Israel, or a Jewish person is responsible for this in society.

They’re the ones creating these organizations and institutions that are, you know, wrecking us, or they’re controlling America’s government. I mean, why? Why is that something that people are falling into thinking?

01:30:03.010 — 01:30:10.890 · Tabatha
Well, I, I will say, I don’t know if I can. There’s a lot of ways you could answer that question, but I will say this.

01:30:12.050 — 01:30:28.080 · Tabatha
There is a pattern. And this is again where history is important. And there is a pattern in the, the, the ascension and the decline of civilization. and when a civilization is in distress. Unfortunately,

01:30:29.160 — 01:32:04.980 · Tabatha
antisemitism is historically always a symptom of that. And I say a symptom because what people, um, extreme people would want you to think is that it’s like the cause it’s at the root. But actually what we’re talking about is more at the root. Antisemitism is actually more of a symptomatic thing that happens and where people turn toward just, I guess, the quintessential other, as you’ve heard it said, you know, people who just will not assimilate, people who just maintain over the centuries and millennia their view and their belief in their God, whether they are in or out of their land.

And they also have, you know, it does come back to the the truth of God’s Word, which they always hold on to. And these are these are principles of, um, where you know, that America was founded on. They carry um their these. These values found in the. In the word of God came from the Jewish people. These are where we get like our big picture concepts of equality and human rights, you know, and and the in freedom and, and this is, um, honestly you I will say that the people that are, are, um, speaking out these lies about Jewish people and the Jewish nation.

They don’t seem to me to have those values at the top of their values. So I do think there’s that. That’s um, but again, I just think I think it’s relevant here on this podcast because of what we always talk about. But also we as Christians know there’s something deeper going on.

01:32:05.020 — 01:32:56.410 · Nic
Yeah. So let’s let’s kind of end with talking about Gen Z, whether you are in Gen Z or whether you’re a parent of a Gen Z or, uh, and you’re a Christian. Yeah. Okay. Well, we’re gonna, like, assume that that you’re a follower of Jesus. So why is this important? We walk through just a lack of identity, a lack of belonging, living in this fast paced, very difficult, stressful world.

And then the gap that that opens up for people to believe, um, you know, for things to enter in like this is real, this is wrong, and there’s somebody to blame for this. So then what can easily slide in is us listening to people saying, Jewish people are to blame, Israel is to blame. So we’re Christians, right?

So we’re thinking, man, the Bible talks a lot about Israel and the Jewish people. So how do I merge these two realities of what I’m hearing in culture with what I believe the Bible says?

01:32:56.450 — 01:34:40.110 · Tabatha
Right. And I do think that’s where it does. Um, it comes back to the gospel. And what’s so cool is we’ve heard this recently. I know I’ve heard it, that you really have to combat a story with another story, and these stories that might have some cherry picked facts, but really do not have an undergirding of truth, of real truths that they’re built on lies.

Even if they have some facts or truths in their, um, they won’t stand. And I believe they won’t stand when against a better story. That’s actually true. And that’s on. God’s word and the biblical worldview. And so that’s where, um, if we’re feeling discouraged, we can actually come back to what we know, you know, and, and it has to do.

The thing with Christians, though, is that, um, we do have to reckon with Israel in ways that we haven’t. That’s the whole reason we have this channel, you know, is that, um, we have to make sure we don’t miss the moment here because of any blind spots. And, and we’ve we have masterclass videos on the Jewishness of the gospel is an inherently essential element of the gospel.

And so when we share the gospel, we need to make sure we’re sharing it, um, rooted. Rooted in the whole Bible and in God’s covenant with Abraham. And we can’t avoid Israel, you know, and, um, you know, when the church is gone, historically quiet, passive, you know, or worse, arrogant. Um, we need to maybe acknowledge that and try to find another way, you know?

Um, yeah. So that’s something.

01:34:40.149 — 01:34:58.830 · Nic
Yeah. I think what you’re saying there, too, is a really important part, which is that God has a name. Mhm. His name has a reputation. Yeah. So he has a character to uphold. He’s faithful. He’s dependable. This is a this is a core part of the what what the Christian worldview has to offer. Yeah. Right.

01:34:59.070 — 01:35:34.490 · Tabatha
But his name is revealed in Exodus. Right. Right. To Moses. You know, there’s all these names of God we say, but they’re really almost more like titles. Yeah, but in Exodus, when he encounters Moses, he says his name. He is Jehovah or Jehovah. I don’t know all the pronunciations, but he’s the specific God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Israel and. And so then don’t you think that’s important that we know that in the midst of all the stuff? Like we should be rooted. There’s a certain story and a history that we know, and we must root this God is our God, you know?

01:35:34.530 — 01:36:07.170 · Nic
Yeah. No, it’s very true. And then you can cling to that, that he has like centuries, thousands of years of historical dealing with people to fall back on. And that’s what needs to be understood, is that the attempt to discredit his faithful character comes often through the idea that he’s replaced Israel, or that he’s done with Israel, he’s done with Jewish people.

He’s turned his back on them, like the idea that they rejected Jesus. What God’s done with them, he’s.

01:36:07.170 — 01:36:07.690 · Tabatha
Rejected.

01:36:07.690 — 01:36:09.610 · Nic
Them. If you fall into thinking.

01:36:09.650 — 01:36:39.160 · Tabatha
Or he’s forgotten them. Yeah, because he’s kind of just moved on with his plan and abandoned their purpose and his plan so they really don’t have a purpose anymore now that they’ve delivered the Messiah, right? That’s really like abandonment of a father to say, oh, never mind. I’m not going to finish the good work that I’ve started in you, and you no longer have a purpose because I’ve taken that purpose and given it to the church.

That’s not helpful. Yeah. It’s harmful. Yeah. You know, and it definitely doesn’t help us relate to Israel and the Jewish people or relate to a society that’s turning on them. Right?

01:36:39.360 — 01:37:56.670 · Nic
Yeah. So it creates it creates an actual dependable anchor for the faith of a believer to really see God as consistent from the cover to the cover of the Bible, which is that, no, he didn’t replace anybody. He adds to God is a God who adds. Right. He’s an addition. God his his, his, his love multiplies. It doesn’t divide.

It doesn’t cut one out in order to make room for the other. It actually multiplies. It’s diverse, it’s dynamic. And that speaks back into a heart who’s feeling like a lack of place in the world, right? Who is leaning into. Thinking on ideologies and other things like that. Because they’re trying to find meaning.

They’re trying to find hope. They’re trying to find like, what is the steady through line here that I can trust in, right? And the truth is, is that the agendas of people who are trying to diminish the marginal or like, discredit Israel and the Jewish people are actually discrediting the nature and character of God, which is as if all of Jesus is going to undermine your own ability to trust him, so that you don’t turn into someone who’s becoming a victim.

You don’t turn into someone who’s blaming of all these other people for the hardship in your own life. People might have some responsibility for things that are done to people, but they’re not the ones that can be blamed.

01:37:56.710 — 01:38:08.070 · Tabatha
Yeah, we can’t make them more than who they are. Like, in some ways we actually give them way too much power. If if they are still the one standing between us and our destiny. Yes. Just because they did something wrong to us.

01:38:08.110 — 01:39:06.410 · Nic
Yeah. And this is ultimately the good news, right? The good news is that Jesus is actually a shepherd that invites us into his story and has a place for us. It says in John he goes to prepare a place for us. He has a place of purpose, and he can walk us through the hardships in life. But it’s very important. Just as you conversate with Gen Z, that you hold these things in tension, that there is a real attempt to discredit and delegitimize Israel and Jewish people.

Because what it’s doing is the enemy is trying to undercut God’s character. He’s trying to turn God into a faithless God, one who changes his mind, who changes direction, who isn’t fully dependable. And we we read in a previous podcast about Jeremiah 31, in the New Covenant and how God connects to the New Covenant.

The idea that as long as they’re stars in the sky and the sun in the sky, he will be faithful to Israel.

01:39:06.450 — 01:40:32.910 · Tabatha
Jesus was an affirmation of God’s plan and purposes and his covenant with Israel. Yeah, he wasn’t a cancellation or a reset in God’s plan, you know? Yeah. And I do think it’s exciting to when you do start to, um, begin to kind of take hold of this worldview that we’re, we’re talking about and we talk about a lot on this podcast.

It does bring meaning to more of the particular particularities of each person’s individual identity, as we relate to the bigger story than we go. Oh, so maybe God really does care and have a purpose that I’m male or female, that I was born in this nation and in this time of history, in this generation, and given these certain gifts and callings that are individual to me, but also there’s corporate gifts and callings that we carry as communities, too, or as generations.

You know, we’ve talked about that, how there’s there’s things that Gen Z has that we really need. And there’s this pragmatic, practical way of thinking that they have that my kids just blow me away sometimes, you know? And so, you know, that’s the beauty of it, too. It’s not just getting it all right and getting us back to to 0, but there’s actually this whole potential that we can fulfill when we have a healthier understanding because a misunderstanding of God’s character, like you were saying earlier, it creates these identity issues in us.

And we believe that over the centuries, the church has grappled with some of these issues. Yeah. You know, and so that’s where we we are a bit struggling right now to speak into this moment.

01:40:32.950 — 01:40:41.230 · Nic
Right? Yeah. All right. Well, so what would be something we’d want people to walk away with, having listened to us for the last however many minutes.

01:40:41.270 — 01:42:02.330 · Tabatha
Yeah. Well, um, I do think I do think, like, you know, an a generation who’s, who’s, you know, here in this time we just value and we can’t, we can’t do it without them. I would say that we’re all in this together. And, um, I would just want them to know if anybody from Gen Z is listening to this podcast that I’m cheering them on and believe in them, because this is a real, um.

This is a moment like a gateway of history. I feel like that we’re going through, you know, and I believe Gen Z, there are those in Gen Z, and I pray many, many believers who I’m already so proud of, these young people, believers in this generation. But I believe they’re going to come through this, and they’re really going to have grappled with some things that are going to bring them to a place that they’re even more grounded and solid, not only in their worldview, being able to relate out to the reality on the ground around them.

But in the gospel, yeah. And in their pursuit of Jesus and following Jesus because they have a passion for Jesus. So I’m really filled with hope and I, and I do hope that we can just be a help however we can here on this podcast or the resources from the center, you know, for for young people or for older people who are wanting to, um, relate to different generations, right.

You know?

01:42:02.370 — 01:42:23.600 · Nic
Yeah. Yeah, that’s really good. Yeah. And also to just that it’s, it is important to keep How culture treats Israel and Jewish people in front of us because it is a bellwether. It’s a sign. It’s a it’s a an indicator on the thermometer to how healthy or unhealthy a culture is. And our culture is going into it.

01:42:23.800 — 01:42:25.200 · Tabatha
And I don’t know, it’s just.

01:42:25.240 — 01:43:24.150 · Nic
It’s going into a very unhealthy direction. The more that these just insidious lies about Jewish people keep coming up. And it’s just important for those of you who are watching to understand the seed bed that is created, for that seed to go into and to actually be planted and to take root, and that is that it’s a generation that needs identity.

It’s a generation that needs to understand someone is for them. And even though someone is again, maybe there are people against them, that that doesn’t mean that they can’t overcome that. There is a plan that God has for them that they can overcome. And then to just help them understand how to resist some of these ideas of being able to fill in who the who the aggressor is, right?

Like it’s not Jewish people, it’s not the state of Israel. Um, anybody who’s saying that is somebody that’s taking advantage of your you’re where you’re at as a person, right?

01:43:24.190 — 01:43:37.150 · Tabatha
Yeah. What do they have to gain from having you believe those lies right there? That should question should be asked. You know, I heard that recently. That’s right. So I can’t take credit for that. But it’s really what I was feeling like. It’s exactly right, you know. Yeah.

01:43:37.190 — 01:44:29.940 · Nic
Yeah, exactly. So just things to be watchful for, you know, as you’re having conversations with your kids, just being curious, having conversation or if it’s you out there in Gen Z and you’re having these kinds of conversations and you’re you’ve trusted somebody as a source of even theology, you know, whether it’s a Christian leader or somebody.

And if the if they start to have a unhealthy view of Israel and the Jewish people, it’s a pretty clear sign that their theology is beginning to be faulty. And, um, and we’ve seen this historically enough to know that we can point this out, that the, the book is, you know, it’s like David Hoffman said in one of our master classes, if you’re into the Bible, you’re into Jewish things.

Newsflash, newsflash, you’re into Jewish things. So this is the core of our of our Jewish foundation, and we can’t cut the foundation out.

01:44:29.980 — 01:44:50.540 · Tabatha
And it does not diminish our identity as non-Jews, as Gentiles, as the nations. It’s actually a joy. It’s the power of that adoption, you know, so it really brings brings meaning and brings joy to who we are. And if we see it that way, then we won’t have to, you know, feel confused about like, wait, is this book for us or for them or what?

You know, it’s not it’s not like that.

01:44:50.580 — 01:45:22.040 · Nic
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So hopefully this conversation was helpful for you. If it if it was then let us know in the comments. And if there’s a question that you have put it in the comments, send us an email. We’d love to know just either. If you’re in Gen Z and you’re washed up with a lot of these things that are hitting your feet and you’re confused by them.

Or if you’re a parent of a Gen Z, um, young person, and these things are confusing and you can’t answer the questions your kids have, where we really want to be a resource to help you walk through that. And we are thankful for your time being with us today. Thank you Tabitha.

01:45:22.040 — 01:45:22.560 · Tabatha
Mhm.

01:45:22.600 — 01:45:33.880 · Nic
Yeah babe I would call you but I’m trying to be more professional right. Yes. So thank you ma’am. All right. We’ll see you next time on the Covenant Conflict podcast. God bless you all.