Torah, Jesus, and Identity: The Tension No One Talks About

David (00:00:00):
Hey everybody. Welcome back to another amazing episode of the Covenant and Conflict Podcast where we take ancient truths, the Bible, and modern issues Israel. And we see where they come together and we wrestle with that tension. And back by popular demand, you couldn’t stop asking for them in the comment section. We heard you. We have Rocket Rudolph. If you didn’t catch the first episode, you can listen or watch right down below. But Rocket is an amazing friend and a Torah observant, Jewish follower of Yeshua Rocket. How are you?

Rocket (00:00:37):
I’m doing great. Thanks for having me. It’s good to be back.

David (00:00:39):
Thanks for coming back. It

Rocket (00:00:40):
Seems like last week.

David (00:00:42):
And in some ways it feels like two years ago. So thank you for coming back. Sure. As we were talking before we hit record, the first time you were on the podcast, you really just talked about your story because that was what’s most important is you went through many different paths, really trying to honor God, live out Jewish life. You knew that you were Jewish, you never questioned if you were anything else. And eventually that path led you to the Jewish Messiah, Yeshua, and at maybe the lowest point in your life realizing, okay, take my life. I’m either going to die today or I’m going to die and come into your kingdom.

Rocket (00:01:29):
That was exactly it.

David (00:01:30):
And now I want to talk, because now we know your story and if you haven’t listened, please watch that one first. Now I want to talk about the wrestle because it didn’t stop. It’s not like you had every answer after you started following Yeshua. And I’m always reminded that Israel means to wrestle with God. And I think part of the Jewish identity is to wrestle. So I would love to just talk about what’s that like? What has that been like following Yeshua, but maintaining Jewish identity and what does that mean when most of the world is like, “You’re a Christian now.” Or maybe someone in the messianic world is like, “You’re a messianic now.” And I’m sure you’re just feeling this tension in this wrestle. Where am I? Where do I fit? So I’d love to talk about that.

Rocket (00:02:18):
I want to start with the term Israel and wrestle to wrestle with God.

David (00:02:23):
Yeah, it’s a good place.

Rocket (00:02:24):
I think that’s the Jewish call. He picked us to do the contending with. So it’s not just our wrestle. I think it’s our wrestle. It’s humanity’s wrestle as depicted and reflected through a very unique story of a singular people to make it vividly clear and obvious that there is a God that contends for our love, for our attention, for our affection, for our partnership. And that to me is so much part of the Jewish call and the extension of that call to God wanting a big, diverse family to our Gentile brothers and sisters.

David (00:03:07):
Yeah.

Rocket (00:03:08):
But I think about that sometimes, that the Jewish people play out that wrestling with God as part of our call. I mean, I wish you’ve heard that said, I wish he would’ve picked somebody else sometimes, but that seems to be part and parcel of what it means to be Jewish.

David (00:03:28):
I have had many conversations with Gentiles who have an offense over the word chosen. What makes them chosen? God chose all, whatever their offense is. And yet when you talk to Jews, they’re like, “We don’t want to be chosen. You kidding me? ” Chosen for most of our existence has been chosen for suffering, chosen for persecution. So this idea that chosen somehow means greater than or chosen means favorite. We don’t think of it in terms of chosen for a task. I heard one guy say, when your parents choose you to do the dishes, you’re not like, “I’m the favorite.” You’re like, “What? Could you please choose somebody else? I don’t want to do this. ” And I hear that when I talk to Israelis and many Jewish people that chosen this was an invitation to a wrestling match where our hip got knocked out of socket.

Rocket (00:04:20):
Exactly. If I’m choosing a nice bottle of wine, if I can say that

David (00:04:29):
In the pocket. Yeah, of

Rocket (00:04:30):
Course.

David (00:04:30):
100%.

Rocket (00:04:32):
For my wife, I’m thinking about what she likes, what appeals to her. But me choosing that wine really doesn’t tell you anything about the wine. It tells you about the appreciation I have for my wife and wanting to have a connection with her and to do something for her. It’s like the gift. The gift itself tells you nothing about the recipient. It tells you a lot about the giver. And I think the chosen piece, firstly, it’s a mystery. I think we don’t understand why fully we could say stiff neck, stubborn, small, obscure, contentious, difficult, but persevering.

(00:05:24):
And then the connection of a successful redirect back into God’s original intention would have to be miraculous. So if that’s what we mean by chosen as a blueprint and an imprint, as a model on how we should behave and conduct ourselves with God and with all men, then that’s quite a heavy mark to have on us. But it tells us everything about the God we serve that he would … There’s no length he wouldn’t go to to make a connection with his children. And so it’s his vehicle, it’s his device to be able to reflect that. And because at least we know there was one Torah, observant, obedient Jew that was born, lived, died, and was resurrected to prove the point. And so it worked and it’s working. I mean, it’s all for that. And of course, after that, we have equality in God’s eyes, but I think the mark on the Jew to carry that contention, that wrestle, that trying to constantly make the space, the air between heaven and earth, finner, that’s just part of the call.

(00:06:50):
It’s part of what we’ve been chosen to reflect in the world, which is why I care about these things. And it’s a constant tension.

David (00:06:59):
Yeah.

Rocket (00:06:59):
What we were talking about trying to … What does it mean to be a Torah observant follower of Yeshua? Well,

David (00:07:06):
Because you ask that famous trite quote, two Jews, three opinions, if you’re to ask three different rabbis- Only three opinions? Yeah, it’s true. It’s probably more, but it’s like- I

Rocket (00:07:17):
Got three opinions on the same thing.

David (00:07:20):
So you ask different rabbis, what does it mean to be Torah observant? They’re going to have different answers.

Rocket (00:07:27):
Very.

David (00:07:28):
And yet that is always what I’ve seen as part of the wrestle, is wrestling with the Torah in its call to obedience, but it’s strangely broad and often quick descriptions. “What does it mean to where Sid Sie? What does it mean to not boil a young goat in its mother’s milk? And how is this applicable today? And is it applicable today? And is that for the Jews in the land or is that for Jews everywhere? So I’d love to talk with you about that wrestle because you shared with us that you were, for years, Torah observant within the Hasidic community, and now you’re following Yeshua, not in the Hasidic community, but still Jewish in a Jewish community. What does that look like? What wrestling matches have you had to have with the Lord or with other Jews to say,” How am I doing this?

Rocket (00:08:27):
“Well, even back then, it was within a stream. It was in a narrow casting of what we would call the Hasidic community. So I remember there are some Hasidic groups that favor each other, have a closer connection or affinity in terms of their practice. So

David (00:08:48):
You

Rocket (00:08:48):
Could say they’re like first cousins and there are some that really see things very different. So it’s not just the mixnagname, which is those- Kind of

David (00:08:57):
Like how we would have denominations. You’re like,

Rocket (00:08:58):
” Oh,

David (00:08:58):
They’re charismatic. “And you’re like, ” Well, there are certain charismatics that are really good charismatics. “Exactly.

Rocket (00:09:04):
Exactly. So I remember living in London, a great example, there was a group, there’s groups, it’s not uncommon, but there are some Hasidic groups that wear their seat on the outside. It’s a garment. They wear on the outside of their white shirt. So the garment itself is a little bit more sturdy

David (00:09:21):
And

Rocket (00:09:21):
They wore it almost like a poncho, not poncho, that kind of thing. And I remember in London, we had a guy called the Spy Pizza Guy. We’d see him a lot. He had pantalons. He had the tall white stockings. He looked like he stepped out of … Do you know Dr. Who? The series? Yeah. He looked like he stepped.

David (00:09:42):
Out of Dr. Who?

Rocket (00:09:44):
He stepped right out of the series, right out of the foam booth from circa 350 years ago, from Central Russia. And he’d go into restaurant. I mean, we were in line with him at a pizza place, a kosher pizza place, and he looks at the guy and he says,” It’s five pizza. “He couldn’t even speak English. He had to speak Yiddish in London, and he knew how to speak English, but there’s such a disregard for- What is Sar? Two. And German or Einspaith. So he had to order it in Yiddish because he had to. And it’s a kind of a humorous example, but that’s that culture. And so even within it, there’s so much variety. One thing, I think I said this last time, but I just want to give honor to the people that first welcomed me back into a Jewish life, how caring and loving they were- Meaning the Hasidic community?

(00:10:46):
Yeah, the one that I was attached to with Chabad. Those particular people too, that community was very loving, very few questions, which is kind of not a Jewish trait, weren’t nosy. They were really caring for my soul and not even talking about how it could have been contaminated or nothing, just caring for my soul from day

David (00:11:10):
One.

Rocket (00:11:11):
So that welcome already is not a common story you hear, you hear about it, but for me, it was very welcoming. And so the contention was kind of early on even within the community, which is why I mentioned the difference. The difference is even within the Orthodox community, there’s a wide variety of flavors, but sometimes it’s like, ” Well, I’m not even sure. I think you’re more of a Sherbert than an ice cream. “And I don’t know if you could be categorized as an ice cream. But you

David (00:11:46):
Can all come into Basting Robbins, which is Israel.

Rocket (00:11:49):
Exactly. So from the beginning, it’s been a constant struggle to try to find comfort, but then what makes you feel comfortable? How do I feel comfortable? But then that is a contention in itself because am I supposed to feel comfortable?

David (00:12:08):
Yeah.

Rocket (00:12:08):
And these are questions that I haven’t stopped asking since coming to faith in Yeshua constantly, what does a Torah observant life look like, feel like? Even in dress, I ask questions all the time. I mean, I don’t look a lot different than you. I have a kippah. My complexion’s a little different, but you wouldn’t know for most, not every Jew looks like Woody Allen walking down the street and there’s not always as obvious

David (00:12:45):
As

Rocket (00:12:47):
Anti-Jewish or Jew hate propaganda would make us think, but it is a question of Galut. It is a question of exile. It’s a question of being detached or disassociated from the land, from the promise, from a way of moving and dancing through life that is directly related to the original call. So even in the way I dress, I’ve taken on another culture, culture’s rules of how to present myself in society.

David (00:13:24):
When you say it’s for exile, are you saying a lot of the commands in Torah were for exile or have been-

Rocket (00:13:32):
Not in Torah. I think that-

David (00:13:33):
But have been given more detail commentary-

Rocket (00:13:37):
For sure.

David (00:13:38):
… to sustain in exile?

Rocket (00:13:40):
For sure.

David (00:13:41):
To sustain the community. It

Rocket (00:13:42):
Became more of a question of accepting a posture, a position of exile. Therefore, how do we … In other words, a great point, how do we maintain Jewish life and exile even down to sacrifice when we don’t have a temple?

David (00:13:59):
Yeah. Which was answered in that small stretch of period, 70 years, Babylonian exile, but that’s much different than 2000 years. And

Rocket (00:14:12):
Even then, when they went back to the land and having to reestablish everything, just like when they came out of Egypt, it took a few days to come out of Egypt. It took 40 years to get Egypt out of them. We still carry this heavy spirit of exile. And so that does impact the view of the Torah. It impacts how you read things, how you perceive things. And it’s always there. So like you said, is it when I’m in the land, does this matter? We were talking about sit, we’re talking about peyote, not cutting the corners of your beard. Where are the corners of your beard? There’s five corners, one, two, three,

David (00:14:59):
Four, five.

Rocket (00:15:00):
Could it be here? Who knows? And it’s like all these questions became more acute because we were disobedient in the beginning. And so instead of really dealing with the root cause of how we ended up in exile, we codified and reimagined everything in the light of it, which isn’t really addressing-

David (00:15:27):
Yeah, the reason. … the

Rocket (00:15:28):
Kosher elephant in the room, the circumcised elephant in the room. It’s like, how did we get here and how do we get back in a right relationship with God?

David (00:15:37):
Yeah.

Rocket (00:15:38):
And as a believer in Yeshua, of course, that is the only way Jew are Gentile to be in a right relationship with God. But in my Jewish identity and practice, because I haven’t changed who I am, it’s a question of how much of this caring of exile is still … How much exile is still in me? I feel like that’s really … That to me is the core of the conversation.

David (00:16:12):
Wow. I

Rocket (00:16:13):
Have it all the time with Jewish people online. I’m substacking all the time. Is that a verb, substacking?

David (00:16:18):
It is now.

Rocket (00:16:18):
It’s like tweeting. It used to be tweeting, that was easy. Now it’s Xing. I don’t know. Next. Oh yeah, that’s not good. But with Jewish people about antisemitism, what do we do about antisemitism and anti-Sionism? And I’m not anti-Jewish, I’m anti-Zionist, and all these questions. And I keep trying to go back to the heart of it, which to me is we’re arguing with men about a spiritual problem, a spiritual confinement that’s caused directly through our disobedience. The Torah, the teaching of Moshe Rabino, Moses, our teacher, is very clear. “Do these things, live rightly with me and with each other, and your days will go well.” If you don’t, you can’t stay here because that’s part of the deal, and we chose not to. And so this exile point, and still I contend, David, every day with, “Why am I not living in Israel? How long do I have to be here?

(00:17:21):
Do I have a reason to be here? What’s God calling me to? ” So that’s part of my Torah observance. It’s not just what I eat, what I don’t eat, what I wear, what I don’t wear. It affects every aspect of life.

(00:17:36):
Over half of the meets faults, let’s accept the codified number of 613, more or less. They have to do with societal things. They have to do with family things. They have to do with really practical things. And there is no … For example, you have to have a boundary on your rooftop. Well, why? Because rooftops were flat and people used to gather on the rooftops. You have to have a boundary. If not, you were stoned. Yeah. You were stoned. Why? Because it showed you had a complete and utter disregard for human life. And if you weren’t willing to safeguard the protection of your community, you don’t belong in the community.

David (00:18:24):
Yeah.

Rocket (00:18:24):
I mean, that’s …

David (00:18:26):
Yeah.

Rocket (00:18:27):
So when I’m talking to

David (00:18:28):
Observing- It’s like driving drunk. It’s like

Rocket (00:18:31):
Driving drunk.

David (00:18:32):
That in and of itself is not the problem. It’s that you have a disregard for human life.

Rocket (00:18:36):
Exactly.

David (00:18:37):
And you’re just not responsible.

Rocket (00:18:39):
And I remember there was this political debate around being held liable for murder if you kill somebody, even if it was an accident, accidental. It’s not accidental. If you know if you drink and you get drunk and drive, it’s not accidental. And that was a political debate for a long time in the country. It’s like, why are we debating this? You know the effects of alcohol. You know you shouldn’t drive. And if you drive and you kill somebody, it’s murder. It just is because there is an intention, not intention to kill, but there’s an intention to behave in a way that endangers humanity. And I think, again, these are all, what does this have to do with milk and meat and sitzits, everything because the Torah is not the teaching of Moses, which Yeshua adhered to and kept and said that we need to continue to keep it as Jews speaking to a Jewish group until the fulfillment of everything, not death and resurrection, everything.

(00:19:44):
So if we believe in a second coming, we have to believe that there’s more stuff that has to be fulfilled. So that’s the wrestle. It’s really …

David (00:19:54):
And in Acts 15, which is post-resurrection and ascension, the Council of Jerusalem meets to ask what do the Gentiles have to observe, which it’s obvious we still have to observe them as Jews. Not that I’m Jewish, but the ones meeting in the Council of Jerusalem, that was the obvious implication is we have to obey the Torah, do the Gentiles that are coming to faith and Yeshua have to be circumcised, have to do all these commands.

Rocket (00:20:24):
Oh, and that … Are we allowed to go there?

David (00:20:27):
Please, yeah.

Rocket (00:20:28):
Oh man, that causes me probably more than as much, if not, that is my number one head scratcher, that decision. Not because I want Gentiles to be more adhered to Jewish codified law.

David (00:20:48):
It definitely would’ve been cleaner.

Rocket (00:20:51):
Well, let’s- Let’s

David (00:20:52):
Just do what we’ve done for 2,000

Rocket (00:20:53):
Years. Well, let’s talk about what happened within years, not even decades after that decision. When more Gentiles came to faith in Jesus, they outnumbered the Jews. And for many Gentiles, even now, when … I remember my father talking about it because they ministered in India and did crusades in India and other countries where they have millions of gods, it was no problem taking on Jesus. It was a good thing to do. It was like elevating your soul because you’re just coming closer to God in the God’s God, the singular plural of his essence. The culture, being Gentile 2000 years ago, being not Jewish 2000 years ago, doesn’t look like it does today, namely because of the growth of the way and the followers and the impact on Western society.

David (00:21:50):
Totally.

Rocket (00:21:51):
Right? Okay. But the sun didn’t come out one day. People are carving hearts out of chests. They’re throwing babies off of buildings. I mean, anything to get the sun to come out. That’s what it meant. It wasn’t, “Oh, I eat pork, you don’t eat pork.”

David (00:22:08):
Yeah.

Rocket (00:22:10):
“I wear blue, you wear green.”

David (00:22:11):
Yeah, we always have to remind our Gentile Christian friends when this debate was happening, Gentile was almost completely synonymous with pagan and pagan meant orgy, blood sacrifices, blood drinking, the child sacrifice. So they weren’t thinking like, “Man, with these evangelical Christians, do they need to circumcise?” Exactly. They were thinking, “Okay, these pagans are wild and they’re going to come follow this Jewish Messiah. What are the guardrails?” Because they were at this sacrifice a week ago. What guardrails are we giving them? And that’s why I say it would be cleaner to just say- Exactly. “Just do what we do. Just follow us because then you won’t have to wrestle with the minutiae of all these other gods and all these other practices and all these other festivals.” But that’s why it seems to be a very odd decision. Just do these four.

Rocket (00:23:14):
Well, and we don’t know when they’re minds and it’s another … I mean, I’ll be very transparent. There’s been a number of times in my mind where I thought it was a mistake and not because I felt, especially 2000 years later

David (00:23:31):
That- Yeah, retrospectively.

Rocket (00:23:33):
No. Yeah. It’s just all of the division started just after that moment to the point where Rav Shahu, Paul was having to address these things, Jude had to … Yakov, or Judah, sorry, Yuda, had to address these things. Peter addressed these things, kepha. Yeah.

David (00:24:00):
It caused a lot of pastoral need.

Rocket (00:24:02):
Well, it was the beginning of the division. If we have to decide on it, we’re creating … There’s a margin and we’re creating a very tight window as to what this means, and they had to accept it. And I accept it because they said it and that’s what we have to do, but I can’t help but think that was the beginning of the end of unity in the body because after that, all sorts of stuff started to seep is a good word. I mean, it just is. Seep into congregations, communities, theology, and it became such a hotpotch. And we know within a hundred or 200 years after, you could see the impact. And so again, it goes back to me wrestling to kind of pull it back to what does Torah observance mean in the light of Yeshua? How did he live? Where does the love come into it and to play the love of his word, the love of community, the love of my brothers and sisters, the love of humanity.

(00:25:07):
It was always God’s design to pull all of his children back into his belly, as I say it, and to his essence. And

(00:25:23):
At the mark of loving God with all your heart and all your soul and all your strength and to love your neighbor as yourself, that’s where for me the Torah points to. That was always the intention.

David (00:25:38):
Yeah. It’s always going back to the heart.

Rocket (00:25:40):
Yeah. And even Moses said in the beginning, everybody says, “Well, afterwards, it was a circumcision of the heart as a new…” But Moses talked about during the first giving of the law, giving of the Torah, the teaching, that it was always a heart issue.

David (00:25:51):
Yeah. Well, the 10 Commandments, I remember asking a Jewish pastor, because we didn’t use the term Rabbi- Is that a thing? A Jewish pastor? Well, it was really out of respect of the rabbis nowadays, that term means I went to Yeshiva, so I don’t want to disrespect them. So I’m a pastor But I said, “The 10th Commandment’s always boggled me because you can’t measure it. ” It’s like adultery. We can prove that. There’s a physical act, murder, yes, physical act, bearing false witness, but then you’re like, “Do not covet.” And you’re like, “I can’t prove that. How is that one of the 10?” And his answer was, “Well, embedded in the 10 Commandments is the desire that it’s all going back to the heart.” Always. And I was like, “Oh, that makes so much sense.” And people have used … The 10 commandments was the starting point.

(00:26:49):
It wasn’t everything. It wasn’t this and nothing else. There’s other commands. There’s other Mitzvahs, but it was the starting point. And it makes sense that the starting point ends with this immeasurable heart posture because that’s what God’s plan was, is he knew we’re kids. We have to … I don’t tell my kids, “Be safe.” I tell them, “Do not cross the street unless you’re holding my hand.” Because the positive command, it doesn’t give them any boundaries. Be safe. I don’t tell my two year old to be safe when she’s in the front yard. I tell her, “Do not do this, but I’m leading her to a place where she eventually understands the heart behind those things.” And I think that’s kind of what God’s plan was for Israel.

Rocket (00:27:30):
That’s so beautiful. And even if we look at the ones like don’t steal or don’t murder, let’s look at the murder one because this is … I mean, ethics, this is an ethics question and it comes up a lot about Judeo-Christian values and ethics. And when you talk to atheists, I think I said last time, I’m more curious on what kind of God they don’t believe in because I’m not sure what that term really means, but it’s in our heart to take what we want. So it is a heart issue, right? We want to take what we want, whether it’s-

David (00:28:03):
A life.

Rocket (00:28:04):
A life.

David (00:28:05):
Someone’s wife.

Rocket (00:28:05):
Right, somebody’s wife.

David (00:28:06):
Yeah, house.

Rocket (00:28:07):
And what stops us from doing it? Well, we know it’s wrong. Well, how do we know it’s wrong? Yeah. Why is murder wrong if that person is in my way or offends me or I’m stronger or I’m trying to assert my dominance-

David (00:28:19):
Or I just desire it.

Rocket (00:28:20):
I just want it to happen. What in us understands … Well, it’s just you know it’s wrong. No, no, no, no.

David (00:28:26):
Yeah.

Rocket (00:28:26):
How did you come to know it’s wrong?

David (00:28:28):
Yeah.

Rocket (00:28:30):
That goes back to the heart of the Torah.

David (00:28:31):
Totally.

Rocket (00:28:33):
And the Torah and the heart of God for

David (00:28:36):
His people. And that’s why Paul says, “So is the Torah bad?” Of course not. But yet that’s because we translated his law, which already has a negative connotation. So anytime Torah in the New Testament translates law, you’re already kind of at a disadvantage, but he’s saying, “Is the Torah evil? May it never be said.” I wouldn’t know what sin is if it wasn’t for the Torah. Exactly. But again, how could something from God be evil?That’s his whole logic. But he says that because he’s having an interfamily debate with these Judaizers, those of the circumcision party who are thinking the Gentiles should become circumcised and obey Torah, which I often have to remind people, that’s pretty logical.

(00:29:22):
That’s not the most assine idea to even consider, but he’s having this interfamily debate saying, “Oh, so you’re saved by Torah? Oh, what about Abraham? Was Abraham justified before or after circumcision? Oh, gotcha.” He’s talking to his Jewish family, but then he realized that the Gentiles who are also getting this letter, he says, “Now guys, is the Torah evil?” No, I wouldn’t know what sin is, it wasn’t for the Torah. I’m just saying that’s not what brings you to salvation and Yeshua. It is faith. It’s by grace through faith that we are saved, not by deeds, by the Torah. To

Rocket (00:30:00):
To me, also phrases like it all points to Yeshua. We like to say that, but it really does. I mean, he was the living embodiment of a perfect Torah life because he understood it was an issue of the heart. He understood that God wants us and is designed a way for us to live constantly pulling us back to Ghanaidan, calling us back to that place of paradise, which it can only be with him in partnership.

David (00:30:37):
Well, talk about translation that we’ve gotten so wrong. The one that stands out to me the most, I’m sure we can maybe get your favorite one as well, is Christ is the end of the law. Okay, so let’s take these three words. Christ is Messiah. So let’s just swap that. Most people are cool with that one. We know that it’s anointed. In Hebrew it’s Messiah, in Greek, it’s Christos. So let’s change it to Messiah. Everyone good? And everyone’s like, yeah, we’re good with that one. Okay. Let’s take law. That’s Torah. Everyone good with that? We all know that he’s talking about the Torah. That was the law, but you could also translate it as teaching or instruction or what it really is, which is the Torah, the Torah of Moses. We good with that one? Again, most churches are like, yeah, we’re good. Okay. So we have Messiah.

(00:31:27):
We have Torah. This word end means a means to an end, end of something. Well, you could translate it as end as long as you understand end means a goal. It was the end goal. So we could translate that as goal because that’s what we’re ending at. So that translation, Christ is the end of the law, could be very well translated as Messiah is the goal of the Torah.

Rocket (00:32:00):
Yes. And it’s through him. So what happens? I want to go back to the C word in a moment, but through Messiah, through Yeshua, through him, what does that even mean? Through him. Yeah. So living a Torah observant life means I get panickedy with words like through because I’m Tor observant. Everything to me matters. What does through him mean? Yeah. Does that mean like a black hole, you’re not sure what’s on the other side, you get through it and then it’s all butterscotch? I mean, what does that word through mean?

David (00:32:37):
Yeah.

Rocket (00:32:37):
Does that mean we don’t have to stop being responsible for how we live? That’s when it all becomes alive. So if the goal is Messiah, then it’s living through him day by day, moment by moment in a way that honors and pleases God and reflects to the world that he is real and he keeps his promises. Yeah. Right? That’s for me what through means. So it’s just the beginning. What I discovered in those dark days at the end of my world in life as I understood it was this is the beginning. The relief was like, I found a derech. I found a path. I found a way home to God. It’s the beginning of a journey. And so through him, like you’re saying, this idea of finality, well, that’s it. Well, I think most believers would say there’s a call to … It’s grace, but there’s also a call to action.

(00:33:36):
It’s a call to living a right life, a righteous life, and accepting that by the grace of God-

David (00:33:43):
We’re saved.

Rocket (00:33:44):
We’re saved. I mean, it’s that.

David (00:33:45):
Yeah, but out of the fruit of that should be good works. As James or Yakov later comes and tells us, it’s like, “Yeah, but if you don’t have any works to show, I’m questioning the saved part.” So

Rocket (00:34:01):
I don’t know if I said this last time. Forgive me if I’m repeating myself, but I’ll never forget it. I was supporting a friend of mine, a younger man, a friend of mine who was doing these workshops and helping people to think much more human around their approach to leadership and business and less corporate, less clinical, and how humans do good business. And one of the phrases he picked up, and I find it … I’m a bit of an ageist. The older I get, close to 60 now. The older I get, the more the reverse ages I become. But because I find people who are a lot younger … I mean, we all quoted stuff, but it’s like they quote it with so much confidence that they originated it in a way,

David (00:34:46):
And

Rocket (00:34:46):
They’re not old enough to have the experience to back up what some of those quotes actually mean to live, right? But he used to love saying this. “We’re not human doings, we’re human beings. “I’m like, ” Wow, but how do you know I’m a good human being if you don’t know my doing? “That’s why we have some people who are so wanting to detach themselves for having to live out life in the real world that they

David (00:35:17):
Go

Rocket (00:35:17):
Into-

David (00:35:19):
It’s only internal.

Rocket (00:35:20):
… isolation and they spend time quietly trying to perfect that internal, but it really, the conflict, the wrestling with God is played out in humanity. It’s played out with being somebody that’s trying to participate in this human experience. The

David (00:35:35):
Spiritual and the physical, we want to separate them, but they live in constant tension. And to show minoritiness, I think of Batman begins where- Love

Rocket (00:35:46):
That.

David (00:35:46):
He says to Rachel, the girl he’s in love with, he says, because he’s pretending to be Bruce Wayne, and he says,” Underneath, I am more. “And she says,” Bruce, it’s not who you are underneath. It’s what you do that defines you. “And that was the whole-

Rocket (00:36:03):
Exactly.

David (00:36:05):
The whole narrative was it’s not just what I believe, what I believe I am or what I believe is right. If I do nothing, then it doesn’t matter what I believe. If there’s no fruit that actually produces works in the physical, then the spiritual is useless. It’s not doing anything. It’s growing dormant inside of me, but that’s a hard message because we love the spiritual side.

Rocket (00:36:35):
But that’s the whole, going back to the Torah and Torah observancy is how much practical stuff in the material world it covers because in Judaism, there’s not really this clear distinction between my body’s soul and spirit. That may sound sacrilegious to some people, but there’s not. Just like there’s a Trinity, which it’s a mystery, but are we saying that we favor … Oh, I like the Holy Spirit, God. It’s a little bit like Talladega nights. Yeah,

David (00:37:05):
I like baby Jesus.

Rocket (00:37:06):
Yeah, I like the golden ball of baby Jesus and swaddle in clothes. I like the baby swaddle in Jesus. It’s three and one. We understand that singular plural and that is, I would say, the number one difference between … I’m oversimplifying, not trying to be scholarly or anything, but the difference between Jewish thought and Greek thought.

David (00:37:32):
Yeah.

Rocket (00:37:37):
Jewish thought first is man is comprised of three essences or factors that make one. It’s the mind- They coexist. Yeah. They coexist to shape who he becomes. It’s, let’s just say body, soul, and spirit, keep it and we put mind with the soul part. Okay?

David (00:37:59):
Yeah. Mind blow and emotion.

Rocket (00:38:01):
And man navigates and operates through life in the singular entity as an image bearer of God. I mean, the idea of a triune God is not … I mean-

David (00:38:13):
It’s not just a Christian idea that we developed later.

Rocket (00:38:16):
No, no. So this idea that God is multifaceted-

David (00:38:23):
Yeah, but still one. Still

Rocket (00:38:24):
One. As image bears, we are too. And therefore, every decision I make impacts. If I make a decision with my material body, it’s going to somehow impact my soul and my spirit.

David (00:38:41):
That’s so good.

Rocket (00:38:43):
It’s impossible to separate

David (00:38:45):
Them

Rocket (00:38:46):
Out. We try, and that’s just man’s way, mankind’s way of trying to navigate through taking responsibility.

David (00:38:56):
But

Rocket (00:38:57):
The Jewish idea is one man, one responsibility comprised of multiple facets and

David (00:39:03):
Parts.

Rocket (00:39:04):
The Greek way of thinking starts off the same. I know I’m simplifying. Man is comprised of three parts, body, soul, and spirit, but man has a destiny and he has to choose which facet or which part of himself he’s going to give himself to. We had Olympians, we had philosophers, and we had priests, and we had the spiritual Greek way of seeing

David (00:39:30):
The sages of theology.

Rocket (00:39:32):
We had three different pasts. You wouldn’t find an Olympian who was a philosopher. The society was broken up that way on purpose. Your intention, you have a destiny, the gods have called you to live this way, and that’s the path you take. Wow. And how has that affected our theology? So I want to go back to the C word, if I can,

David (00:39:53):
Because you

Rocket (00:39:54):
Said, “We’ll all agree with this. ” It’s a struggle. How many times is the word Christian mentioned in the New Covenant?

David (00:40:01):
I think it’s two or three.

Rocket (00:40:02):
Okay.

David (00:40:04):
I could ask Chad.

Rocket (00:40:05):
Okay. No, no. So putting the word aside, I mean, it’s still, when I hear, even now, I’m posturing not to … This isn’t for dramatic effect. When I hear the word Christ, I still wince. Yeah. And I think it’s far too simplistic to say, “Well, that’s because of church history.” I mean, it is, but I don’t know if the words are really interchangeable because I don’t think the understanding … I mean, I understand on one level it is, but from this is what I … If we can go back to the conversation of Acts 15 and where it all started to go wobbly. Let’s say Rav Shaol Paul, a. K.a. Paul of Tarsus coined it. He was doing it in a context in Greek they would understand what the word meant.

David (00:41:04):
Yeah. Anointed one.

Rocket (00:41:05):
Okay. But let’s take that a step further and let’s look at not only the Torah, but the Tanakh’s understanding of leadership from a God-centered perspective and how he called his ordinances and his commands for kings and priests. Let’s compare that to Gentile kings. Okay. Well, before we were talking about the culture 2000 years ago was much different. So it wasn’t proper and honorable for a Jewish king, for David to act in the same way that the kings of the nations that surrounded Israel behaved.

David (00:41:47):
Correct.

Rocket (00:41:50):
So the understanding of the word is directly related to the position or function of the role that it takes, which makes a lot of sense. Also, there’s two things I think that are important here for me, and this is connected to a Torah observant Jewish life because even using words like Torah, I become so conscious of using these words. I’m not sure they’re interchangeable in terms of the nature of what it meant to be a Gentile king 2000 years ago.

David (00:42:20):
When you say- Or

Rocket (00:42:21):
Anointed.

David (00:42:22):
Okay, you mean anointed? Yeah, yeah.

Rocket (00:42:23):
Well, anointed for what? Anointed, like kings were anointed. People of-

David (00:42:26):
True.

Rocket (00:42:27):
Rulers being anointed for purpose. So any ruler, you want to say a ruler?

David (00:42:31):
Yeah. But there was anointed people that weren’t kings, right?

Rocket (00:42:35):
But they all had high degree. It was a high position of authority. So let’s look at high authority and then let’s go back to Greek culture and Jewish culture or pagan culture and Jewish culture. And I don’t think it’s unfair 2000 years to go, 2000 years ago to say Jewish culture and pagan culture.

David (00:42:50):
Yeah.

Rocket (00:42:50):
Because you’re certainly not a pagan.

David (00:42:53):
Yeah.

Rocket (00:42:54):
Okay. So the nature of what it meant to be in a high position of authority and a pagan culture, you can’t say was a very biblical perspective.

David (00:43:05):
Okay, true.

Rocket (00:43:07):
So the word is problematic because you’re using the word for a people who come out of that culture.

David (00:43:14):
Are you saying 2000 years ago?

Rocket (00:43:15):
Yeah.

David (00:43:16):
Okay.

Rocket (00:43:17):
So I get why it was used, but it’s another one of those head scratchers because in Greek, I used to speak pretty good modern Greek. Greek is super hard because I lived in Greece for three years. My parents used to always say I had such a gift. I mean, languages, I could hear it and a few weeks start to have some type of conversation. They have the word Messiah in Greek. Messias.

David (00:43:41):
Wow.

Rocket (00:43:42):
They also have Christos. So the word got carried through, but the impact on the culture and the early body of Messiah was massive in terms of the culture shift and it still impacts us today. And many Jews if they’re on us and many believers in Yeshua, if they’re honest, we’ll tell you that they have an issue with the word Christ.

David (00:44:06):
Yeah. My issue with it is most Christians, Gentiles, but Christians, they don’t know what Christ means.

Rocket (00:44:18):
Right.

David (00:44:18):
So when they say Jesus Christ, and I’ll say, “What does Christ mean?” They’ll say, “Lord, God.” Obviously the joke is like his last name, whatever. And I go, “No, it’s Greek, Christos for Messiah.” So what you’re saying is Yeshua Messiah. And they’re like, “Oh, yeah, that makes sense.” They don’t know it. So my argument was always like, we should be using Messiah because we have a word for Messiah. I get why you would maybe translate it to Christos if you’re in writing in Greek and that’s the common- I love that, David. … vernacular. Yeah. But we have the word Messiah. We call the scriptures in Tanakh that point to a Messiah, we call them messianic scriptures. So we have a word for Messiah. So why do we need the word we don’t understand other than it’s just, it’s now part of our culture.

Rocket (00:45:13):
Well, let’s take it one step further.

David (00:45:15):
Take it further.

Rocket (00:45:16):
Let’s take it further. Let’s go

David (00:45:17):
Deeper.

Rocket (00:45:18):
It’s

David (00:45:19):
Another

Rocket (00:45:19):
Good.That’s

David (00:45:20):
My more kind of practical issue with it than you have the church history.

Rocket (00:45:27):
Yeah, of course. Of course, that’s a big

David (00:45:29):
Part of it. We’ve talked many times about how interestingly things were done to the Jewish people in the name of Christ. I don’t know of many, if any, that were done in the name of Messiah.

Rocket (00:45:42):
Or Jesus.

David (00:45:42):
Or Jesus.

Rocket (00:45:43):
Or even Jesus. That was the point I was going to make. I can’t think of a singular impactful event in Jewish history with the, and I am going to air quote Christian church because that’s part of the Jewish … That’s good to get to that too. But after this, I can’t think of a singular event that’s been documented in Jewish history that was traumatic in terms of its treatment by the Christian church that was not done in the name of Christ. The Christ king figure changed the Lordship or the Lord or our Lord or our savior. This language was

David (00:46:22):
Used.

Rocket (00:46:23):
If Jesus was ever used, it certainly wasn’t used just as Jesus. It would have been Jesus Christ or

David (00:46:28):
The

Rocket (00:46:29):
Christ. And so then what was done, it’s almost like his nature changed. The kind of kingship of Jesus took on a very Gentile frame.

David (00:46:43):
Yeah. Yeah. And a Gentile understanding of what the King would be. And therefore

Rocket (00:46:47):
The whole conquering-

David (00:46:48):
Yeah, conquering my name.

Rocket (00:46:49):
Dominion thing goes back to what I was saying before about the difference between Jewish kingship or leadership and pagan leadership in kingship. So it’s problematic because the impact of that is obvious that we’re still grappling with today. It’s like, we were talking on the phone earlier. It’s like an Italian comes to faith. Nobody goes, “Wow, an Italian person came to faith. An Irish person came to faith. Oh, well, you know you’re not Irish anymore.” I had a conversation with a guy who was adamant about this issue and me kind of adhering to Jewish practice as if somehow being born again, we’re not under law, so why don’t you go out and run a red light. I mean, that’s how the conversation was getting. And at the end, he literally said to me, “I have no

David (00:47:49):
Ethnos.” Interesting.

Rocket (00:47:51):
He had no ethnos. I said, “Well, am I talking to a phantom? I mean, you have a shape and a material.” Yes, but it’s immaterial. And that goes back to that Greek thinking versus Jewish thinking.

David (00:48:03):
Is that my body? The Greeks very much wanted the purest form of enlightenment. The goal was to be as disconnected to the body as possible from pleasure because the highest form was spiritual. And we’d definitely taken that into Christianity.

Rocket (00:48:18):
And that’s part of that living, you have to choose which life

David (00:48:21):
That

Rocket (00:48:22):
You … You have to choose your destiny. And if it’s a spiritual edifying, purifying world, you have to deny yourself of all those

David (00:48:32):
Things,

Rocket (00:48:34):
Wearing a sheet, shaving your head. I mean, anything that

(00:48:40):
Would … And of course, there are traces and elements of that have, I would say, seeped into Judaism over the time. Again, it goes back to this diasporic issue of not being in the land as part of the promises of God, as part of the identification of what it meant to be a God praiser, which is what the word Jew means. I mean, a lot of arguments I have with secular Jews, another, just to be fair, I know we use that term a lot, but if you think about it, it’s rather oxymoronic. Let’s translate it all the way through. Oh, I’m a secular God praiser.

David (00:49:23):
I

Rocket (00:49:23):
Mean, it doesn’t make any sense. So we invented it because we’re great at inventing ways to make ourselves feel more comfortable in our skin, but it doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. And these are the arguments I’m having with Jews when we’re talking about antisemitism, we’re talking about religious rights of passage. What does it mean to be Jewish? It means a lot of different things to different people. When we’re getting into-

David (00:49:49):
The nitty-gritty.

Rocket (00:49:50):
The nitty-gritty, yeah. But at the core, top level, even I would say down multiple levels, 50,000 feet under the ground levels still, I’m not sure it does because God made it pretty clear what it meant to be a follower of him and to be part of the Jewish nation. And he codified the covenant. It’s on him, not us. He made it pretty clear. And I contend with being a believer in Yeshua, what does it mean and how do I live it out? So for people listening, tracking this might be hard, but to me it’s all centered around the same question that you asked, what does it really mean? And where’s the contention of wrestling with these things? Because just to be very clear, to try to save a few-

David (00:50:36):
Comments.

Rocket (00:50:37):
Comments. We can’t save all of them, but I am not believing that any of my brothers and sisters in Yeshua need to live observant Jewish lives.

David (00:50:49):
Talking about Gentiles?

Rocket (00:50:50):
Gentiles.

David (00:50:51):
Yeah.

Rocket (00:50:52):
Thank you for clarifying. Yeah. They need to live because they’re not Jewish, but if the calls and gifts of God are irrevocable, then there’s something still important and significant about me living this life that reflects an aspect and of character, an aspect of God’s nature that he desires the world to embrace through me just being who I am. I mean, a great story is when I was sharing with somebody my faith, I didn’t share this on the podcast last time, I don’t think. I’ve only really shared my faith one time in a closed environment where I was driving back. Did I say this last time?

David (00:51:33):
No, you didn’t. You’ve told me this story, but I literally was thinking you need to tell this story.

Rocket (00:51:37):
Okay. So I’m driving back. I was a keynote speaker at this event and I got along really well with the producer. The other producer, the two producers, one was a friend of mine. I only did the event because I promised him years ago if he’d start his own business, if he ever needed me, I would do something for him. So now he’s super successful. And he goes, “Remember you made me this promise? Fine. I want you to come keynote and close out our conference.” It was in Green Bay. I had such an impactful time with him. The first day I met his colleague, the other producer, I just felt the Lord give me such compassion for this young woman. What a beautiful soul she had. Navigating being a young mom, a wife, having a career, all the stuff that many women face today, we don’t have any clue being dudes because we just have to go out and do it all.

(00:52:28):
But man, it’s tough. And she had such a grace and such a respect about her, a beautiful young lady. And I remember just, I don’t remember what I said, but I was looking in her eyes and I just felt the Lord prompted me to just encourage her about something and she just burst into tears. She literally was eating a hamburger. She had to put it down and she picked up her napkin and she started to cry, cry, cry. And my friend’s like, “Great, you’ve made her cry. You’ve only met her for an hour. Now she’s crying.” But something happened and we made a connection. And so she said to me, “Look, I’m driving back to Minneapolis. I know you’re flying through Minneapolis, but can we drive you from Green Bay to Minneapolis like four hours and then you can pick up your flight back home to DFW or FWD, as I like to call it.

(00:53:13):
” That’s another podcast. So I said, “Sure,” because they just wanted to spend more time. We made a connection and they wanted more time, so I sorted it out. So we’re driving down the road and lovely girl, certainly leaning more on the liberal side of life and politics than I would myself. And she says, “This antisemitism thing driving, she’s looking ahead and she goes, I thought we were past this. ” And she wasn’t being disrespectful. She was just saying, “I didn’t know this was still a thing.” And it seems like ever since Trump came into office … Can I mention Trump on the podcast? Yeah. Okay. Ever since Trump came into office, it seems to have just gotten, it’s all like, wow, it’s just like magnified. And I thought about it for a second and I said, “Well, I said, Trump, let’s consider Trump to be like a hammer.

(00:54:16):
I’m talking universal epic hammer. His whole quant, his whole being is just, he’s just a hammer.

David (00:54:23):
Yeah, totally.

Rocket (00:54:24):
And it was like a hammer thumping on the ground and it released a lot of the earth that was like, let’s say around this tree. I said, we’re a tree, the whole thing. And the dust and it unsettled it and all the cracks, all the stuff that was there, it just kind of unsettled it and shook it up.

David (00:54:47):
Yeah. Things that were always there, but not shown.

Rocket (00:54:49):
That’s how I explained it. And I said, I think that’s what’s happened. I don’t think Trump is responsible for the rise of antisemitism. I think Trump’s a hammer, maybe even God’s hammer. And it’s just a result of stuff that’s always been under the surface and now it’s been shaken up and loosed.

(00:55:13):
And she goes, “Oh, that’s kind of interesting.” And then I turned to her and she can feel my eyes burning in the side of her head. And I said, “Do you want to know what I really think? ” That was my politically correct answer. She’s like, “Yeah.” And I just waited patiently until she looked at me and I said, “It’s demonic.” And she went, “Okay.” We started to drive. I said, “I think it’s demonic. I think it’s a spiritual problem that we can’t solve through arguments or debates or opinions or philosophies or politics. It’s a demonic issue.” She goes, “Okay, I really need you to unpack this for me. ” She’s getting spooked out. That one comment spooked her out. That’s funny in itself,

David (00:55:57):
Right? Yeah. Of

Rocket (00:55:58):
All the things in life.

David (00:55:59):
Yeah. You were cool, but then you mentioned that demonic stuff.

Rocket (00:56:02):
But I said it in a way that wasn’t like a TV series on CW. It was like, he really thinks that. I said, “Okay, let’s just go with me on this little magical fairytale journey, this little journey. Let’s just pretend for a second that there is a God and let’s just pretend that it’s real. It’s real. I’ll give you, keep it all fantasical.” And he had this desire to experience something in and of itself, himself that we can’t understand, but our creation was part of a fulfillment in him to experience himself in a way we don’t understand how all this works. Now for somebody like her, that’s like, “Okay, that’s kind of groovy.”

David (00:56:53):
So

Rocket (00:56:53):
Let’s just say, and then-

David (00:56:55):
Like Mother Earth.

Rocket (00:56:56):
Yeah.

David (00:56:56):
But

Rocket (00:56:57):
The idea was just trying to … We weren’t here and then we were here

(00:57:02):
And let’s just pretend it was with intention. Just come with me on this journey. It’s with intention to know himself experientially in a way through his children. If you’re a parent, it’s like you’re observing yourself in a way that you couldn’t inside of yourself, but by having a little piece of you running around, you experience yourself as a parent, as a human in a very different way than you do inside of yourself. And maybe that’s … Who knows? But I like to think of it that way. And she’s like, “Okay, that’s kind of interesting.” I said, “And then we blew it. We blew it. We broke the connection, but this love of this perfect father for his children was so deep and there’s no distance he wouldn’t go to reconnect to his kids. It doesn’t matter what they did. His desire was to be with them.” And she was like, “Okay.” And I said, and he said, “I’m going to pick this people and I’m going to mark them and they’re going to be scally wags.

(00:58:06):
They’re going to be roughians. They’re going to be contentious, difficult, small, almost like an insect, like it bothers you, like that one nat you can’t get off your face. That’s how they’re going to be to the rest of the earth. And I’m going to pick them and I’m going to mark them with my love and with my care and devotion as a model for all humanity of what my intention is. ” I said, “That’s the Jewish life.” She’s like, “Okay.” I said, “No, let’s keep on this fantasy trail.” If that’s true and we believe in yin and yang and good and bad and black and white and dark and light, if there is this loving father and this God that made us for purpose and for connection and for relationship, then there must be an opposite of him. Again, I’m keeping this not too deep and let’s just call him the adversary.

(00:59:02):
You might know him as the devil. Let’s call him the adversary. What singular greater ambition would it have than to prove that God isn’t faithful and reliable to his word? Not that he didn’t exist, but he’s not worth following. What greater ambition would he have than to destroy God’s marked people?

David (00:59:30):
Yeah.

Rocket (00:59:31):
It has to be top of the list because we are the reflection of God’s desire for all of humanity. And if he can take out that-

David (00:59:42):
He can prove God’s not faithful.

Rocket (00:59:43):
He can prove God’s not faithful to his word. Therefore, the fact that I’m sitting here having this podcast with you as a Jewish man is testimony that God is faithful to his word. It’s as simple and as hard to accept as that. And That is the essence of the Torah pointing to Yeshua. That is the essence of God’s eternal love. So when we talk about favor and election and selection and chosen for purpose, what’s the purpose to point to God’s desire to reconnect with his children? With

David (01:00:18):
All of mankind.

Rocket (01:00:19):
All of mankind. Yeah. And the Tanakh is very clear about all of the nations coming together. So I told her that, I said, and so that’s what this is. This is a ancient war between God’s desire or conflict, between God’s desire to connect with all of his children and the adversary’s desire to prove that he’s not faithful or worth following. So picking on the Jews makes a lot of sense. And I realized, oh my gosh.

David (01:00:54):
I just shared the gospel. That’s

Rocket (01:00:55):
The gospel.

David (01:00:56):
Yep.

Rocket (01:00:57):
I mean, that is the gospel.

David (01:00:59):
It’s

Rocket (01:00:59):
Not, close your eyes, raise your hand, nobody look. Follow Jesus to where? Where’s he going?

David (01:01:05):
Well, and I asked someone on this podcast who had that understanding of the Israel peace. I said, “Will you share the gospel with us? Because we are taught in the Western evangelical church, God created mankind. He wanted a relationship with him. They chose to reject him. Everything fell into sin. So God sent Jesus. You’re like, Whoa, whoa.

Rocket (01:01:33):
Hold on.

David (01:01:34):
Chapter one, chapter two, book seven. Wait, wait, wait.

Rocket (01:01:37):
Exactly.

David (01:01:39):
They send Jesus to heal that sin part. And we don’t even realize it. Most Christians don’t realize they just relegated God’s covenantal faithfulness to Israel, to the sin part of the Bible.

(01:01:52):
And Jesus is only coming for a singular purpose, which is sin. He’s not brought from within God’s faithful covenant to his people. He’s not coming to his people even though he declares it multiple times. I came for the lot shape of the house of Israel. You shall name the boy Yeshua for he will save his people. All these scriptures just don’t apply anymore. And if we truly understood the gospel, then we’d have to understand that the Jewish people was God’s, like you said, fingerprint or imprint, that I am going to be faithful regardless of whether they’re faithful back. And that is the picture of the gospel. And the Jewish people, people of Israel have been that picture for the world that just like you keep messing up and we’ll never get it right. Don’t worry. I’ve shown you time and time again, just as Israel kept on messing up, didn’t get it right.

(01:02:54):
And there were consequences, but the consequence was never that I will break my covenant with them.

Rocket (01:03:02):
So if we go back, that’s beautiful. I’m so moved. I want to follow you Shua fresh all over again after that. When you go back to, you said chapter one, chapter two and chapter seven. Book seven. Sorry, book seven. Yeah. Book seven.

David (01:03:16):
Yeah. We skipped other

Rocket (01:03:17):
Books. Chapter one, chapter two, book seven.

David (01:03:19):
Yeah.

Rocket (01:03:20):
That is exactly why as a messianic, as a Jewish tour observant follower of

David (01:03:27):
Eshua,

Rocket (01:03:29):
That contention with the Torah piece, because when you go from chapter one, chapter two to book seven, you’re also taking out the whole Torah story jumping from man’s original sin. Jesus came to bridge the gap as a sinless life.You’re canceling out the whole Zion story. Yeah. You’re canceling out the Torah story and pretty much the Jewish people. So it is very much a not Jewish story about a very Jewish Messiah.

David (01:04:04):
It’s not done with this intention, but it is the replacement theology gospel.

Rocket (01:04:09):
Right.

David (01:04:10):
And it sounds terrible because it is true, but just like the Nysean creed, it’s true, but you left some very important things out. Some of our former students that I still disciple and walk through the Bible with, I once had them read the Nycean creed and I said, “Do you agree with it? ” It’s like, son from the Father, light from light, truth from truth. It’s like very poetic and beautiful. It’s basically, it was created to contend with Marcianism and I think just the belief that Jesus wasn’t always in existence, that Jesus wasn’t really God. I think it was Marcianism, but it might have been something else. But it was this idea that he was created being and the Nicene Creed was the stamp of approval that no, he was light from light. He was with God at the beginning. So I said, “Read that.

(01:05:12):
Do you agree with it? ” And they’re like, “Absolutely.” I said, “Okay, does it mention the God of Israel? Does it mention Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? Does it mention Jesus’ Messiah?” I’m like, “Oh, no, it doesn’t.” So it’s not that it was wrong, it just left something very important out. It disconnected Jesus with Israel. It disconnected him from his Jewish identity and it disconnected God from Israel, even though he calls himself the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of Israel. So that’s the same thing. It’s like the replacement theology gospel is not untrue. It’s just incomplete and that is dangerous.

Rocket (01:05:54):
But that’s exactly why this conversation we need to continue to have around what is it, the contentions around a Torah observant life, trying to find that in part of the family of Messiah, Jew and Gentile is even harder.

David (01:06:07):
Totally.

Rocket (01:06:08):
I mean, it’s super hard in the Jewish community. There is some quiet acceptance. I mean, those stories are true like, “Okay, I get it, but you’re a good boy. You’re just a little lost. Just don’t tell anybody. Let’s

David (01:06:20):
Kind of

Rocket (01:06:21):
Whatever.” And you still- I’ve

David (01:06:23):
Had those conversations, “Hey, between you and me.

Rocket (01:06:25):
” Yeah. Well, because I mean, even being counted in dominions and things, but okay, it’s fine.

David (01:06:31):
Yeah.

Rocket (01:06:31):
He’s in. He’s still one of us.

(01:06:35):
But the gospel, I think part of it is to pull this back to the contention part and the role that I have that’s unique and that we have as Jewish people, is this bridging the gap, not in terms of a question of eternity, only the Lord, and that’s what Yeshua does, but in terms of intercession and minding the gap for the world that still is outside of that right relationship with God, I think that is a uniquely Jewish call through … And there’s something that still holds to my practice and an observancy of living a Jewish life, unique Jewish life every day, three times a day, I pray for, I intercede for the nations that they would come to know the knowledge of God. And my way of doing that is express through how I live. And I try every day more and more to understand what that role means today.

(01:07:38):
Because if you think when a Gentile comes to faith in Jesus and Yeshua, hallelujah, I mean, I feel like that’s great. That’s one closer, but I don’t think there’s this sense that you feel like you’re standing in the gap, whereas I feel it. I feel like there’s an obligation and responsibility. When you come in as a Gentile believer, I don’t think one of the first things on your mind is, because you didn’t pray three times a day for the nations. You didn’t stand in the gap. And I think that’s still part of the unique role that the Jewish people have, especially in Messiah, That all men would be drawn to him. And although we all share that call

David (01:08:22):
As

Rocket (01:08:22):
Jews and Gentiles, the lived expression that I have of a Jewish man, as a believer in Yeshua, trying to follow not just the teaching of Moses, but the teaching of all of our fathers from Moses and the prophets still has a prophetic significance in the world today in terms of minding that gap until all that should be saved come into the house and then-

David (01:08:53):
Every knee’s bowed.

Rocket (01:08:53):
Every knee is bowed. Every tongue confesses, then I feel like my work here is done. But until then, there’s still a significant place that living this life holds and I can’t understand it and it’s not easy.

David (01:09:08):
No.

Rocket (01:09:09):
I mean, it’s really hard because I feel criticism from every direction and it’s embarrassing and it’s inconvenient and …

David (01:09:18):
Yeah.

(01:09:19):
Well, and my oversimplistic personal hot take on living Jewish life, and again, this could be oversimplified, is just keep wrestling. If you give up, whatever. To me, that is a greater loss of Jewish identity than going a little too much or going a little too, but always having this wrestle of, I always want to make sure I’m following Torah. I’m living out Jewish identity. And five years ago, I thought that meant this. And now I’ve come to the realization that it’s really more about this, but it’s the wrestle more than it is. I found it. I found the right stream. I found the denomination that has everything. No, it’s the wrestle. And that to me is maybe not all of it, but it is a great part of Jewish identity is constantly wrestling.

Rocket (01:10:26):
I love that. That is so liberating. That’s one of the kindest, most generous, most encouraging things that anybody’s ever told me. Seriously, I

David (01:10:36):
Mean

Rocket (01:10:36):
That. If you think of the verse, if I start the first verse, tell me as you understand the second part, because I know you know the verse. Okay? You definitely know the verse, okay? Where there is no vision.

David (01:10:50):
The people fail.

Rocket (01:10:51):
Okay. A really good understanding of that is where there is no vision that people cast off restraint. They stop pushing. They cast off restraint. They give up.

David (01:11:09):
Yeah.

Rocket (01:11:11):
There is something in that that’s very beautiful. And I think that’s a much closer kind of to the Hebrew intention of that, where there is no vision present that guides you to lean into-

David (01:11:25):
Tension. … the call

Rocket (01:11:26):
Of God, where there’s no tension to

David (01:11:28):
Lean into

Rocket (01:11:29):
It.

David (01:11:29):
Yeah. When there’s no vision, then why am I pushing so hard? Yep.

Rocket (01:11:34):
And so if we link the vision to the call, that word, vocado in Latin, calling, no vocation, what’s your vocation? A call. Wow. My

David (01:11:44):
Vocation.That’s

Rocket (01:11:45):
What the word means. So when we say that, we think job. The word vocation means calling.

David (01:11:49):
Wow. It’s

Rocket (01:11:50):
What it literally means, like literally from Latin. So my call as a Jewish man is connected to understanding the teaching of Moses and the prophets as lived and modeled through Yeshua, to give open access to the Father, to live in right relationship with him and each other. That is the goal. And if I’m doing anything that isn’t centered on that vision, then what’s the point?

David (01:12:26):
Yeah.

Rocket (01:12:27):
So of course, there’s no contention around the sacrificial laws because Yeshua answered those. I mean, there are many things that Yeshua answered on his first visit. There are some that were having to weigh in the tension between then and now and what will be for him to come back

David (01:12:47):
For

Rocket (01:12:47):
His second visitation and ruling as king. But until then, I love that. That to me has really inspired me. I should say, “Well, thank you for joining us today.” Because that to me is that, David, seriously, that is so liberating and I want more people. I hope lots of people hear this, especially Jewish believers in Yeshua, to liberate them to carry on that contention because I think there’s something, like I said, as part of our calling that is unique to us as a people until all things have been fulfilled and until then it’s trying to figure out how to live it and also doing it in community with you. I mean, how do we figure that out? And that’s a 2,000 year question. Well, we’re not going to figure it out by me trying to be more like you or you playing Jewish Halloween and dressing up wearing yamakas and not eating bacon and not answering the phone on Shabbat.

(01:13:58):
Of course, that doesn’t put you in a right relationship with God, but how do we live it out day to day and not just respect. My least favorite word in the English language, I have one, is tolerance or tolerate.

(01:14:13):
That really is my least favorite word. We shouldn’t have to tolerate each other. We shouldn’t have to accept. It is absolutely essential that we honor who God created and designed us to be. And he has a unique role for us as individuals and us as communities, us as ethnic groups. Otherwise, I mean, we’re all a facet of his nature. Without you, I’m not complete. So I think that’s the continuing … I think that was the mic drop moment, really.

David (01:14:50):
Yeah, that’s what the church was supposed to be.

Rocket (01:14:52):
Oh,

David (01:14:53):
I love it. It’s

Rocket (01:14:53):
The tension. It’s feel like we’re just getting started again.

David (01:14:56):
I know. Well, this was probably the longest podcast we’ve ever had, but what a great conversation to be, the long one and not the last one, like I said on the phone. This is just the second one. This is the last one. I appreciate that.

Rocket (01:15:10):
I’m looking forward to it.

David (01:15:11):
So thank you so much for tuning in. Make sure to subscribe like this video, send it to your friends because we want as many people entering into the covenant and the conflict, the wrestle that it means to wrestle with God, which is both intimate and uncomfortable. And I think that’s the call, is to get intimate and uncomfortable, and that’s when we find ourselves in the will of God. So we love you. We’ll see you next time.