A Practical Guide to Israel, the End Times & the Return of Jesus

David (00:02):
Welcome back everybody to another episode of the Covenant and Conflict Podcast, where we take ancient truths, modern issues, things found in scripture, and see how it relates to us today. And with us, we have a very special guest, Ben Juster from Tku America.

Ben (00:18):
Great to be here. David,

David (00:19):
We’re so glad that you’re here. We’re going to dive into some really fun topics, but first I’d love for you to just tell everybody who you are, where you’re from, what you do, and just catch us up, family, all the fun stuff.

Ben (00:31):
Yeah. Well, my name is Benjamin Juster and I’m a second generation Jewish believer in Jesus. Beautiful. I was raised in really what then was the modern beginnings of the Messianic movement in America and one of the early congregations that my dad led, it was seeming like Jewish people were coming to faith in droves, and it was an exciting time to be alive. A lot was happening, even the formation of what it really meant in a messianic theological construct, how we were unified with the church, but yet distinct from it. So all that was all being

David (01:07):
Developed. It’s groundbreaking at that time.

Ben (01:09):
It really was.

David (01:10):
And your dad’s like one of the fathers of the movement.

Ben (01:14):
Exactly right. There were maybe four major Messianic identifiable congregations at that time, and then they exploded, and now we have well over 200 today. Crazy in the United States. So exciting times. But of all things, I decided to go to Oral Roberts University to get my undergrad degree, not as a seminary degree, but in business. And for several years, 12 years I was in the business world after graduating and had diverse experiences, mostly in the human resources field, but aerospace organizations, nonprofits, and then finally with a Toyota before entering into ministry. Wow. And now today I’m the president of a network of Messianic Jewish congregations. We have 30

David (01:58):
In

Ben (01:58):
The United States, Canada and Mexico.

David (02:01):
My

Ben (02:01):
Wife and I did spend some time in Israel for five years and then we moved to Jacksonville, Florida, which is basically our headquarters to do our travels around to these other congregations.

David (02:10):
We have so many great friends that are koon in the Koon family. We love the work that you do both internationally and here in the United States. So we’re thankful to be in relationship with you guys.

Ben (02:23):
Well, one of the things I think that’s so fun is the partnerships and the friendships that have lasted decades and the covenant unity and the love of just being in the kingdom together. It’s really been a lot of fun.

David (02:34):
Totally. I mean, the relationships that I have are because of Nick and Wayne who went before me, and those relationships still last, and I’m getting introduced to those forefathers of the Messianic movement, their kids and grandkids, and we’re all continuing to stand on their shoulders.

Ben (02:50):
I think it’s exciting because seeing really the third and fourth generation of relationships that are continuing with our kids and beyond, so that’s really been exciting to see.

David (03:01):
Well, we had your dad on the podcast.

Ben (03:02):
Yes.

David (03:03):
And now hopefully he did a good job. Hopefully we’ll see. And when we talked earlier about all the different myriad of topics that we could discuss regarding Israel, Jewish people, messianic Judaism, and the one that you brought up that really caught my attention was the timeline of Yeshua’s return.

Ben (03:23):
Right.

David (03:23):
Because you start mentioning revelation and end times. I mean the Israel people come out.

Ben (03:28):
Yes.

David (03:29):
And weird people come out and angry people come out. It’s a divisive topic. It’s a crazy topic. It’s a fear and topic. And I said right before we recorded, we haven’t done much on the end times. One because it’s divisive, two because it’s confusing, and three because we’re not the experts in it. And so I’m excited to hear you talk about really just where we are within that timeline. We’re not date setting, but Yeshua did talk about seasons and looking at the fig tree and when the fig tree is about to go through a season of harvest. Don’t be confused when you start to see signs of birth, pangs, whatever. So I’d love for you to first just kind of ground us. How should we even begin diving into a topic such as the end times?

Ben (04:19):
Well, it is a minefield, and I think that some people spend so much time and energy prognosticating and trying to figure out when exactly it’s going to happen to the month or the day or worrying just filled with anxiety and fear. Will there be a tribulation? Will I be part of it? How will that all play out? And I think it’s missing the larger context. Jesus is coming back.

David (04:45):
We

Ben (04:45):
All are excited about that, but I think that because of the delay, there’s a tendency to kind of lose that hope and that focus, that urgency of lifestyle to prepare for his return. We are supposed to prepare for it. And I use this example of you’ve probably gone on a road trip with your daughters and you’re in the car and it’s not even half hour, you’re down the road and your kids will ask, well, are we almost there? When are we going to get there?

David (05:17):
We’ve burned through all the games,

Ben (05:19):
Everything we had planned, and parents often will say, well, we’re going to get there soon. Well, one smart lec kid replied to their parents, well, do you mean Jesus is coming back soon or soon? Soon, yeah. And that’s kind of the attitude that we can take because of it’s just like we use language In a way, the disciples thought that Jesus was returning within their generation

David (05:43):
Totally.

Ben (05:43):
Were living their lives, was such an urgency that hey, you will see me return in the same manner that I left, that he was going to come back on the man of olives and set up his kingdom and that it was going to be within a decade within their lifetime.

David (05:58):
And people were even struggling at the time with, there’s people dying. I thought he was supposed to come back before we tasted death. And I think Paul has to speak into this. Don’t be alarmed.

Ben (06:09):
And so they had to reinterpret even the meaning of what Jesus himself said in the context of their reality. Now we know if we look at scripture, the amount of prophecies that still need to be fulfilled has dwindled down to perhaps a handful. And that’s kind of where I think our focus has to begin is that we’re now looking at the end times in the landscape of all history. And Jesus himself, I think it’s the best place to start is what did Jesus say was going to happen before he returned?

David (06:44):
Yeah.

Ben (06:44):
Well first let’s look at Matthew 24, verse 14 when it says, the gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all nations of the earth and then the end will come. So to me, if we start there, we know that we as the body of believers have a job to do and that is to boldly proclaim the kingdom of God until this special number that we don’t know of nations has been reached with the good news. And what I can just say from personal travels around the world and from talking with different missions leaders, the language has shifted to where now they’re no longer talking about the 10 40 window as their primary goal of accomplishment

David (07:31):
Was 10 40 window.

Ben (07:32):
So the 10 40 window is where 80% of the world’s population lives.

(07:37):
And so if you draw these lines north and south of the equator and it goes as a band around the entire earth, you’ll find 80% of the world’s population in that 10 40 window. And this is where all the missions movements of the world were really focused from the 1970s and eighties. I remember going to conferences as a teenager and all the missions focus was on these people groups within this 10 40 window. But now the language has shifted and the missions movements of the world, billion Soul Harvest is an example or Power 21. They’re saying, is it possible that by the year 2033 and some are saying 2050, we could have a Bible and a believer in every known nation, tribe and people group in the world. So what does that mean? That means that we have to have a translation of the Bible in that language. I was walking, have you been to the Bible museum in Washington DC yet?

David (08:36):
No. I’ve seen obviously videos and pictures, but I haven’t been there.

Ben (08:38):
Incredible opportunity to get there with your family if you can. I spent many hours just by myself. If I went with my family, I’d be pressured to

David (08:46):
Leave. Yeah, you need one with kids and then one with

Ben (08:48):
Exactly. Exactly. But there’s a room that they have that I walked into, and it’s a room filled with acrylic boxes. The acrylic boxes are color coded based on how much progress has been made translating the Bible in all the known languages of the world.

(09:05):
And when I entered that room, some of the boxes are, I can’t remember the color specifically, let’s say green for completed. These are done. And then you had ones that are orange and they’re partially completed, and you have ones that are red and those are for closed countries, and they don’t want to expose how much of the Bible is being worked on in those languages. Then you had clear ones that hadn’t even been started yet, and you might walk in a room like that and say, oh, there’s so much left to be done. But my reaction as soon as I walked into that room was what a generation we are living in because within a generation we could have this job done that every single one of these countries, tribes could have a Bible in their language. Why? Because with resourcing and focus and modern technology, I know that there’s a lot of negative implications with ai, but AI can exponentially increase the speed at which we are getting these translations completed and

David (10:05):
Probably cheapen it

Ben (10:05):
And cheapen it and get it even with languages that are only audible, their only spoken languages don’t have a written form, but an AI can have that whole language translated in a way that they can hear the word of God in their own tongue. I mean, it’s just an incredible time.

David (10:21):
We’ve

Ben (10:21):
Never had that technology exist.

David (10:23):
Totally.

Ben (10:24):
And so I look at that as being a prophecy that is possible that could be fulfilled in our lifetime, and that’s just a mystery. Then secondly, we look at what is another thing that Jesus said, he said in Matthew 23 at the end of the chapter, speaking to the Jewish leadership at that time

(10:44):
Grieving over the fact that they were rejecting the time of their visitation with Jesus. His first time that he was stepping in Jerusalem and he said, Jerusalem, Jerusalem. Oh, how I long to gather. You as a hen would gather their chicks, but you were not willing. And now your house is going to be left to you desolate, but you will not see me again until you say blessed isity who comes in the name of the Lord. And so I know that again, the words of Jesus himself, there is a moment in time that is suspended for Jesus to even return until a significant number of the Jewish people in Israel, but maybe even around the world have accepted him and are in a place where they can welcome him home. And so this is why I feel it’s so important that as part of our missional focus, we’re talking about the gospel going to all the nations. There is a back to Jerusalem movement that doesn’t kick or punt away the mandate to preach the good news to the Jewish people. It’s always been to the Jew first and also to the

David (11:48):
Nations.

Ben (11:49):
And so we see, do we really want Jesus to return? And if so, we will be focused on a prayer and a work of evangelism to my Jewish brothers and sisters.

David (12:00):
It’s funny when you say the gospel to the Jew first, obviously Gateway Church was founded on this principle. We’re going to take the gospel to the Jew first and then to Gentile. We’ve developed many friends in the Orthodox community, and it’s funny, they’ve told us, can you just put us at the bottom of the list? Like go evangelize all the nations. That’d be great. We love Christians. Just put us at the bottom. It’s kind of the exact opposite to the Jew first. Yes. And it’s crucial though to understand that the gospel started in Jerusalem and that’s kind of the mission that Jesus gives the disciples to Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria ends of the earth. And so we’ve seen the gospel go out like you’re saying, these boxes kind of representing the gospel going out, but it has to come back to the place in which it came. Right. It has to

Ben (12:52):
Reverberate. Yeah. It’s amazing. I’ll tell you a story just by way of example. Several years ago, these tribal leaders, chiefs of these Polynesian island tribes brought stones to Jerusalem from their own island, from their own country, and they brought these and gave them as honorific gifts to several of the leaders in the land.

David (13:14):
Wow.

Ben (13:15):
Now why did they do that? Because if you take a globe and you were to stick a pin from Jerusalem all the way through that globe where you end up in those Polynesian islands,

David (13:25):
Really?

Ben (13:26):
And so what they were doing by way of spiritual transaction was saying the gospel has gone all the way around the world and now we want to honor you by bringing it back to Jerusalem. And so this will just jaw dropping moment of just again, the prophetic timeline that we’re in is this has never been able to be a witness in a testimony that Israel is supposed to be a light to the nations and they are, but it’s through the message of Jesus and his kingdom that the whole world is being touched by that message.

David (14:01):
Yeah. I mean I think it was Maimonides that said, I know he talked about Muhammad, he also talked about Jesus saying one of the only reasons why the world knows about the Torah is because of Jesus and the Christians. And so even someone who didn’t see Jesus Yeshua as Messiah of Israel, son of God, still recognized this was God’s plan to allow the nations to see his Torah. His word and something you just kind of briefly mentioned was honoring Israel and the Jewish people. And I remember you saying that earlier about how we’re supposed to be a light to Israel and the Jewish people is through honoring. That’s not typically how it’s been historically when Christians share their faith, it’s been aggressive, it’s been violent. So what is the heart supposed to be?

Ben (14:59):
Well, as you all know so well, as you’ve developed great videos and teaching resources on Romans nine through 11, especially Romans 11, that really shows that everything that we’ve been having as a tense kind of debate, even the title of the podcast, it leads into this idea that there is some kind of tension that we’re walking in. But yet Romans 11 says that there’d be a hardening on the people of Israel, but it’d be temporary and that it would be through the fullness of the nations coming to relationship with Jesus and awareness of Torah, awareness of God’s standard, his love, and bringing us all back into a place of forgiveness and righteousness that that would make Israel jealous and that they would then return to the full revelation of who God is and of course Jesus’ son. And that in there there’s this key language that says, what will it be that when Israel comes to faith, it’ll be his life from the dead. It’ll be like this whole revival when we say life from the bed, that’s resurrection power. And that revival as we conceptualize it as a body really means when there is a transformation of peoples to return to relationship. Right. Relationship with God.

(16:19):
And so I think that the fullness of the nations at one side, the salvation of Israel at the other brings life from the dead, which is resurrection power. And that to me is a symbol of Jesus’ return because we can’t have the fullness of resurrection power unless Jesus returns.

David (16:35):
Yeah, man, that’s so good. Yeah. So where are we now on the timeline in your

Ben (16:41):
Estimation? Well, it’s funny. I remember as a 20 something year old young person that I didn’t want Jesus to return.

David (16:49):
You want to get married first.

Ben (16:50):
Wanted to get married. Yeah. The But then after I got married, what did I want kids, I wanted to have kids.

David (16:54):
And

Ben (16:54):
Now that I have kids that are marriageable age, I’m like, well, grandkids, it’s not bad to be a grandfather, but we see this tension because for those who have a good life, they want to experience all that life has to offer, but suffering, there’s tremendous suffering in the world.

(17:12):
And we can also scratch our heads and say, why has God tarried so long? Why has Jesus tarried so long? Why isn’t he here? And I think, again, second Peter three has this amazing key that God is not slow in keeping his promise as some understand slowness, but that he’s patient with us wanting all to come to repentance. And as a parent, I have great parent examples because as a father of three children, you’ve been through the gambit of these kind of things that are relatable. But when your child misbehaves, it’s very common, and I don’t know where we learn this from, but before we issue any kind of timeout or punishment, it’s common to say, change your behavior and I’m going to count to three. And we say, okay, Johnny, let’s say your kid’s name is Johnny. Johnny, you’ve got to stop doing what you’re doing. I’m going to count to three or else there’ll be consequences one, two. And we even draw it out a little two and a half. It’s like, but why do parents count? Because at the end of the day, I think that we have a God instilled desire to see even our children come to repentance and right behavior on their own,

(18:27):
Not to be forced to do it because of the consequence, but to freely choose

(18:31):
To follow God in his ways. And we have this inside of us because we really don’t want to punish. We want to be patient with our children just like God wants to be patient with us wanting all to come to repentance. And then the end will come. But when the end comes, that is a terrible, it’s even calls it the great and terrible day of the Lord. It’s great for those who have received forgiveness, great for those who have come into the family of God and had that restoration but terrible for those who have to face the consequence of in their own will saying, I’m not even going to listen to the counting. And I don’t know. I remember my parents were counters too. And when you get to the end, you have a decision to make. And is my heart so hard even that I’m willing to go through the consequence because of I just do not want to do what they want me to do. Or am I going to just take a breath and just say, yep, I’m going to come in alignment with what I know is the right way to behave.

(19:27):
And so I think that this is the moment that we’re in history in the end that the counting for 2000 years since Jesus’ death and ascension has been going on and we’ve seen wars, rumors of wars, earthquakes, tragedies. Why are you tearing? Well, there’s still a moment and then we’re we can choose to follow him or not.

(19:48):
And so I think that what we are now wanting to do is rally the world, as many as we can touch with the good news to say you have a loving father who is open arms wanting to re-embrace you into the family of God. And now is your moment. Don’t wait for the final count. Don’t wait for that final number. And one of the things that I think is another symbol by the way of this is another prayer that Jesus prayed in John 17. He prayed that the world, that all those, not only his disciples, but everyone who heard their message would be one as he was one, and that the world may know that he was sent from the Father because of the love that we have for one another. This is just such an amazing thing. And as I’ve walked with gateway, I’ve walked with other communities, do you know that the empire building territorial kingdoms of this earth are being now subdued and there is a greater humility and love for the whole body of Messiah. And I think that that humility carries such power. We’ve seen prayer movements that have come into alignment to pray the same thing, which is not to say that we pray in agreement about how everything should happen,

(21:03):
But that we’re praying your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven, and how can we be a good witness of the gospel of unity and love? And I think that’s really one of the fourth keys is that we have to be people who contend for unity in the body, that this unity will be one of the things that makes Israel jealous is when they see the love that we have for one another and for Jesus as the son of God,

David (21:29):
And we got work to do, we do have work to do. What would you say, you mentioned a little bit at the beginning that there’s a responsibility to prepare for his coming. What does that look like? Because when I hear prepare, I think bunker, oatmeal, weapons, that’s the Texas prepare. So what does it mean to prepare for the return of Yeshua?

Ben (21:55):
Sure. Well, I think amazingly enough, they were wrestling with the same question 2000 years ago. That’s good. How do you live in the midst of a world that’s shaking in the midst of not knowing the day or the hour, but knowing the seasons and the times again, we see these prophecies shrinking in the number that need to still be fulfilled. But Peter says, knowing that the world will be shaken and knowing that there’s this tearing, what kind of people should you be? Well, you should live your life in holiness and godliness. And I thought, well, isn’t that interestingly, he says holiness and godliness aren’t those the same things? And I think that if we do a quick read, we might say, oh yeah, holiness and godliness are synonyms. They’re parallel to each other. But I had a revelation that holiness and godliness are really different.

(22:46):
So holiness is the idea of God’s separateness from everything that he’s created because he is perfectly good, perfectly righteous. Everything that he does is awesome and we can’t debate the creator. He’s like, everything that you do is right, but yet we are separated from that until we’ve appropriated the blood of Jesus in our life and then we become holy. We become separate as part of that relationship now that we have with him. But holiness is really our separation from the world system. It’s our stepping away from the thinking and the traps of the schemes of the enemy to come apart from what would be considered the normal zeitgeist or the culture

David (23:36):
Being conformed by the ways of the world, essentially.

Ben (23:38):
That’s right. Exactly. That’s holiness. But then what is godliness? And I thought, wow, we’ve stepped away from the world, but now we’re stepping back into the world to reflect his character. Godliness is our shining, reflecting his light back into the dark places of the world. That’s good. So you have holiness that steps us out from the world system, but then we have to reengage. It’s interesting if you do a study on monasteries, people who were monks or nuns and they’d create these whole isolated communities.

David (24:13):
Communities, totally.

Ben (24:14):
But yet what they found is in many of these communities, they were still separate from the world, but still it entered in sinful desires, lust, greed, competition, territorialism, anger, frustration. And so they weren’t fully demonstrating the character of God even though they had separated themselves.

David (24:34):
There was more of a holiness, a separation, but not a godliness

Ben (24:38):
Bringing

David (24:38):
It back into the community.

Ben (24:40):
So coming back to us today, I don’t want to be a people who create isolated communities separate from the world, but yet still deal with all of the sin and other things because we haven’t appropriated God’s character. See, our holiness is a gift. It’s grace. It’s the blood of Messiah appropriated for us that puts us in a new position, righteous and justified before God, but yet we have a responsibility once we’ve reached that place to then reflect his glory. And so I don’t want to be a people that doesn’t impact the world with a model of good character. And I look at it this way as when you have a prism, you know what a prism is? It’s like a multi angled either glass or plastic or acrylic. And when the light shines through a prism outside the others comes all these different colors, the full rainbow of color. And this is how we are supposed to be. We are supposed to be a people who are shaped by the word of God. So we are angled to be able to reflect and change the light as it’s going in, but then we’re positioned in such a way that God’s glory has shined through us and then it becomes visible to the world.

(25:57):
How’s it become visible to the world? Well, because we’re positioned at as presence, but then we display his character in all the different facets, all the different colors. And that is a beautiful thing. It becomes beautiful just like a prism. You show all the colors of this rainbow

David (26:12):
That brings more clarity to the living in the world, but not of it in the world is the godliness, but not of the world is the holiness.

Ben (26:19):
And

David (26:20):
Having that covenant and that conflict both to get together, the tension that we talk about so much. That’s really good.

Ben (26:28):
And second Peter also, I would say you read second Peter three really contemplated. We meditate on it. And that’s really the key to how to live on the end times because it tells us about abiding in him. So if we abide in his presence, again, that’s our position positioned in his presence. We are deriving our hope and our source. So no matter what we walk through, if we’re suffering, we can still be in his presence. If we have a season of good and plenty, we’re still in his presence and we’re still trying to find a way to live in holiness and godliness no matter what our circumstance. The second thing it says is to guard yourself. And there is so much that we have to guard ourselves against today.

David (27:05):
Yeah, totally.

Ben (27:06):
We have to guard ourselves against not just wrong doctrine, but whole wrong ways of thinking about life and our position, our importance. How do we really enter into that space, what we have to guard our hearts, guard our minds and have that be filtered everything through the word of God. What’s the word of God really say? And how do we apply it in our life? That’s good. And to be a people who walk circumspectly but also realize that it’s all through God’s grace. We can get so shamed and dejected and disillusioned with our own selves because we know that we still fall, we know that we still have temptations, but the power of the gospel is this. And if we do this together, it becomes really great. Let’s not be a people that shame and ostracize one another when we fall, but let’s be a people who reach out and grab one and say, let’s keep running. Yeah. There’s repentance that needs to happen. There’s restitution for wrongs from one another, but yet we need to be a people that encourage and exhort, let’s keep running this race. We’re going to finish together.

David (28:10):
And the church is becoming increasingly more aggressive towards its own body and towards its own members

Ben (28:16):
And

David (28:17):
Can sometimes be the first to throw the stones rather.

Ben (28:20):
And do we teach the fact that we need to be a compassionate people understanding that it might not be the same sin that we deal with, but yet we have our own. And so we have to be very careful that we aren’t using a suspect and log principle, that we really have a log in our own eye and we’re so worried about that person’s

David (28:40):
Spec. Yeah. And we’ve elevated other sins drastically above certain sins that maybe we hold dear that we struggle with. So we’ve talked now for almost 30 minutes on Revelation. We haven’t gotten to rapture, we haven’t gotten to dispensationalism, we haven’t gotten to Israel’s place within, and we don’t have to, but I’m sure people are wondering. Absolutely. I thought this was about revelation. So are those things that are just so secondary as long as we’re prepared? Or are those things important that we have a right view on?

Ben (29:14):
Yeah, so this is the challenge is a lot of these issues about the end times and our belief about

(29:20):
Them

Ben (29:20):
Are really not salvation importance issues. You’re still going to be in. If you love the Lord, you’re following Jesus, you’re doing the best you can. Then what we believe about the end times really is, I wouldn’t say irrelevant, but it becomes less important. And so I think that unfortunately there’s been so much division in the body over our doctrine about the end times, but really we need to be much more concerned about our behavior, our character in the end times.

David (29:50):
That’s great.

Ben (29:50):
So that’s why I start there. But then the other things, it’s really important whenever you have a theology to ask this great question. So what is the impact of that theology on your own life? And so within what we would consider classical dispensational theology, there can be an idea that people will not need to go through the tribulation because they’re going to be raptured out. The pre-trib rapture idea is, and again, I have great friendships who people still believe that they believe that’s what the Bible says. I haven’t come to that view, but yet what is the implication of that view for that individual? And I also kind of tongue in cheek say, many parts of the world are walking in tribulation right now. We see in various nations, Christians getting beheaded for their faith. We see the antisemitism and the rise of hatred against Jewish people, and we see just the contention and the animosity even within the church towards one another. And to me that’s the bigger issue is we’re walking through in some ways a tribulation right now. So what’s the difference? It becomes more and more increased worldwide, but for the people walking through it, they don’t care. They said, I want to be released out of this tribulation, but regardless, do we lose our urgency to prepare our own houses?

(31:15):
So

Ben (31:16):
We say, well, I’m going to leave it anyway, so I’m going to throw caution to the wind and everything will work out. And you might be very surprised if the world changes. One of the things that I think is we don’t realize how quickly the world could change. I just was reading an article that says our dread for the United States is approaching 40 trillion

David (31:36):
Our debt.

Ben (31:37):
Yeah, the national debt.

David (31:39):
Yeah. It’s like pretend numbers. There’s a monopoly money

Ben (31:40):
At this point, and I’m not trying to make anyone afraid, but just think about this. The reason why our currency works is because enough people have faith in the dollar of the United States that when we turn it in, it’s going to be worth relatively the same amount. There’s inflation and things like that.

(31:58):
But overnight, the perception of people might change. And if they change, then they could make runs on the banks. They could say, I don’t trust that the federal government and the treasury can back my dollar anymore. And they start to shift their money around that could overnight cause an economic collapse, and then the whole world could change based on the tide economies and markets to the world. So I say the world as we know it could be completely different in a week or a year or five years or 10 years. We don’t know when that’s going to happen. So I think that we need to be a people that are ready to walk through whatever comes, but also learn how to endorse suffering with hope. People can experience the same tragedy and their reaction to it and their response to it can be very different. Some people can get very hopeless and throw just all their faith out the door. God is not good. I’m just going to, whether it’s a divorce or a sickness or your kids have walked away from the Lord or you’ve walked through persecution yourself, how you respond to that shows a lot about the depth of your faith.

(33:08):
But if we learn how to be a people who endure suffering with hope, that even as Jesus was completely innocent, didn’t deserve any of the persecution that he received, he actually came for the opposite to give people life, to give people a pathway back into right relationship with God. Yet he was beaten. He was smitten. He was put up on a cross and bled for us. And yet still said, father, forgive them for they know not what they do. That is the essence of the Christian life or the believing life, is that when we walk through suffering can recognize that just as Jesus suffered, we can identify with him and then walk in a way that says, father, forgive them for they know not what they do. It doesn’t mean that there’s not justice in the world. It does not mean that we don’t pursue justice for the victims, but it means that we now walk with a different level of understanding of God’s plan,

(34:04):
That

Ben (34:04):
There’s something powerful that when we walk through something that’s undeserved and we still don’t lash out in revenge, lash out in hatred, and bitterness become to a place of peace, say, yeah, it’s painful, but I’m going to identify with Jesus, with Yeshua and his suffering for me.

(34:22):
And I think that that’s something that we’ll have to learn how to do in the end times very well, by the way, anyone can suffer badly. Your neighbor, your workplace, whatever, you can have a cuss fit. You can throw your fists into the walls. I mean, that’s normal. That’s what would be expected when you go through tragedy. But what would be unique, what would be powerful is if through the greatest suffering, you say, I’ve come to peace with God and man, and though I don’t agree this is pain. This is based in the sinful patterns of the world. I can still come to a place of hope

David (34:55):
That’s so good.

Ben (34:56):
That’s different. That’s the kind of faith that I want to live. That’s the kind that my neighbors will probably be attracted to.

David (35:02):
That reminds me of a story, and I can’t even remember where exactly or who it’s told about, but I think it was the writer of a hymn, but he was on a boat and all the Christians in the boat, they were for sure going to die. They were going to be shipwrecked. They were in a crazy storm. And yet all the Christians had this peace and were worshiping in the storm. And that is what convinced him. I needed to know more about whatever they have because when we were all on the verge of death and we had no hope, all the Christians had hope and peace that were on this boat. And I think he later became the author of a famous hymn.

Ben (35:40):
Yeah, I think if I’m remembering the same guy, it’s the author of the It is Well With My Soul.

David (35:45):
I think that’s,

Ben (35:46):
And he had even lost, I think several of his kids and family members and yet came to such a depth of relationship with the Lord that he was able to say, my soul is at rest well with my soul, even though I’ve experienced all these tragedies. And if you talk to people who’ve gone through real devastating things in their family, even in my family personally letting I lost my brother when he was 12 years old to a fire.

David (36:12):
Oh my

Ben (36:12):
Gosh. And I remember sitting on the, I was actually on a missions trip in Ethiopia at the time, and we get the call in the middle of the night. It was just like,

David (36:21):
How old were you?

Ben (36:21):
I was 23 at the

David (36:23):
Time. Oh gosh.

Ben (36:26):
They put him on life support and our team was just praying and crying out for a miracle, we believe in the power of God to heal, but when God didn’t come through as we hoped he would, and he does. I’ve experienced many miracles in my life, prayed for people that seen miraculous recoveries. It didn’t happen for him. And I was devastated. I remember being on the edge of a bed and really about to go insane because my parents had just given of themselves sacrificially for the ministry their whole life. I was on a mission trip with my sister. We were like, how could this happen to us? Tragedy shouldn’t happen to the children of God. That kind of attitude that we can walk in until the tragedy strikes and then it questions our

David (37:06):
Faith. Yeah, totally.

Ben (37:07):
And I remember sitting on the edge of the bed, but in my mind, in my spirit, I was on the edge of a cliff and I was about to throw in the towel. I was about to go insane. And I knew it. It was a very, very surrealistic kind of moment. And the Holy Spirit arrested me in that moment and said, Ben, I know that the pain is so great of what you’re walking through right now, and it would be understandable again, how you hear the voice of God is different. For me, it was like this conversation of the Lord in my heart. I’m about to just mentally just lose it. And God understood in that moment, he understood the depth of my pain. And he said, I would understand if you even went insane because of the pain is so great, but you have to know that this would be your choice. Wow. That was a hard thing to realize that I couldn’t blame the circumstance for my reaction to it. This will be your choice, or if you choose me, I will walk through this pain with you and we will do it together.

(38:16):
Geez.

Ben (38:17):
And so it was at that moment, my sister’s looking up into my eyes and probably saw that I was just glossing over and about she to go about to lose two brothers that day, not just one. And she lets out this blood curdling scream. She’s like Ben, no, at the top of her lungs. But it was at that moment, that same moment in the spirit where I was choosing to let God walk through the pain with me and seeing how my family went through that grieving process together over the next year, you never really lose it. It’s always like a pain in your heart,

David (38:52):
But

Ben (38:52):
It gets different. You handle it differently. And for those who’ve lost loved ones before their time, whatever that is, it’s in our mind that we think that people deserve to be on the earth

David (39:01):
A

Ben (39:01):
Certain time. But it changes. But walking through that together, seeing that worship was the thing that kept our family together. Just being in the presence of the Lord, sharing our story, sharing our tears with dear friends who had let us cry with them and just question, why did this happen? But I think that’s a model for how we have to learn how to suffer in the end times, is that we are people who realize that pain is real. We don’t gloss over it. We don’t cover over it. We don’t try to say it’s not real, but can we get to a place of hope in the presence of God where we know that this is just temporary And there will be a moment where there’s no more mourning, no more sorrow, no more pain, and everything will be made. All the things that have been done wrong to us will be made. All the betrayals, all the abuse will be made. Right. It’s not our job on this earth. We do the best we can through courts, through systems to try to get justice, but there’s no perfect justice other than what God can bring.

(40:03):
And so to release it to him and say, I need you to walk through this pain with me, it’s the only answer.

David (40:08):
And

Ben (40:08):
Allow whatever vengeance you give, whatever you do to trust that it will be your perfect will.

David (40:14):
Man, this is the most practical revelation podcast that I think I’ve ever been a part of. Wow. It’s practical. It’s like it changes how we live.

(40:26):
And

David (40:27):
I remember the first time I read, I say, first time I read, that’s not true. The first time I read Revelation and understood it practically and how the author John writes at the very beginning, blessed is he who hears these things and does them. And I was like, wait, revelation is supposed to be practical. I was always told it was purely symbolic, allegorical and future focused. And here the author at the very opening says, blessed is he who hears and does it. And that’s when I started saying, yeah, there is an allegorical and a symbolic nature to it, a future focus in certain areas. But there’s also a deeply practical part when he opens the church in Ephesus that says, you forgot your first love.

Ben (41:18):
Come

David (41:18):
Back. These are practical things. He’s saying, Hey, you’ve done these things well, but I have this offense against you. Those are things that we can all do as the church. And again,

Ben (41:26):
Those are things of what character.

David (41:28):
Totally.

Ben (41:28):
So how do we as a people prepare for the end times? Well, I think that we can’t lose our urgency to share the gospel that’s so clear from Matthew 24. You’ve got to preach the gospel in all the nations. And that means to your neighbors, that means to your schoolmates, that means in your workplaces, we need to bring people to an encounter with what the word of God says, but his love, that this is about love. And we’ll have a choice just like we’re in the, and the kids have a choice. Come back full circle to that.

David (41:55):
And your point that his tearing is out of kindness.

Ben (41:59):
Yes, yes.

David (42:01):
Why is it taking so long? Because he loves you so much. He’s giving you every opportunity.

Ben (42:06):
That’s

David (42:07):
An interesting or way to frame that.

Ben (42:09):
Sure. And then we say, we cannot lose the mandate to preach the good news to the Jewish people as part of this. And Israel in the end times is so critical. You look at Revelation seven and it lists, there are 144,000 from every tribe of Israel, 12,000 from every tribe. But then there was a multitude from every tribe, nation, and tongue that no one could count. So you see these things juxtaposed against each other, which means in the end times, whatever that means, there will be in Israel and a representation of Israel. But in the end times, there will also be the nations. And because these categories exist even after the return of Yeshua, we know that they will exist at some level for all time.

David (42:52):
Yeah, that’s an interesting point. That’s something I was at a service Jew gentile understanding, and there was a comment made about Jew and Gentile. Obviously we know that’s not going to be forever. That’s just here and now. And I thought, I don’t know. I’ve been reading a lot of Ezekiel and Zacharia and Revelation and seeing, no, there’s still a Jew and Gentile distinction. There’s not a different class

Ben (43:21):
System,

David (43:21):
There’s not a caste system. But there is still distinction.

Ben (43:24):
And I think that is the most important thing to realize about distinction. It’s not about worth. And we think that being chosen or having a specific role, and I really look at it similar to a marriage. I never think of myself as more valuable than my wife, but I really don’t want to be a woman. I’m glad I’m not glad that she’s not a man, because that changes the dynamics of mutual blessing. There is a thing that Lorena can provide in our relationship that I can never provide. There’s qualities and things that God has gifted her with as a woman that I can never do for my kids. And likewise as a man, there’s things that I can. And it’s when the nations in Israel recognize that that’s what God built into the very fabric of creation itself. He called a nation out not to be better then, but to serve and to lead, and then to bring everyone into unity.

David (44:19):
And

Ben (44:19):
So the nations are supposed to have this intimate unity with Israel, but because the Lord is in the midst of them, we’re all the bride of Messiah. So it’s Israel and the nations that become the bride of Jesus.

David (44:31):
So good. So as we close, what is your perspective on the rise of antisemitism, the rise of the anti-Israel sentiment in the United Nations? We see in the end times, again, whatever that is, and whatever window you want to put that in, that the nation’s attack Israel, which I think for thousands of years that had to be understood allegorically because there’s no Israel. And even if there was, why would we attack? And now it seems very clear, oh yeah, I could totally see a world in which nations rise up to attack Israel. So how much of that is literal? How much of that do you think is going to happen on the earth? And is our role that there’s a remnant in Israel and there’s a remnant in nations, and those are the ones that stay faithful? And how much is, and all Israel will be saved, all the nations come. What is the difference between the remnant and this kind of global? Everyone will know, every tongue will confess, every knee will bow.

Ben (45:39):
Yeah. Well, I would say first let’s address, there’s different kinds of antisemitism in the world. And I would say there have been hamans and Pharaohs all throughout history that have tried to eradicate the Jewish people. It’s never worked. Even in our own messianic communities and the Jewish communities who say, they tried to kill us, we won. Let’s eat. Let’s have a celebration. So many feasts are celebrating the fact that still here, they overcame being eradicated. But at the same time, so there’s a spirit of antisemitism that is clearly the work of the enemy and it infiltrates governments, but those are not believers. I would expect that if these governments, secular governments are against God

(46:19):
And

Ben (46:19):
They don’t have a Judeo-Christian approach to their life, that they would come to a place where the Jewish people, just because they’re being used to the enemy, they’re anathema. They have to be eradicated. But yet what I find really disconcerting is the number of believers who are reading the same Bible

David (46:40):
And

Ben (46:41):
Coming to this view that Israel has been replaced. Israel is no longer the covenant people of God, and that now they can be, look, I don’t mind, and I’ll distinguish between the government of Israel, which is not the, we say, look at the holy land, but it’s not the holy land, yet it’s the place where God has its eye, but the government itself is in progress, and it’s not a kingdom government of the Lord. So I don’t think that it’s wrong to question and to put forth a question of whether Israel does things the right way policy wise, that internally within Israel, that happens all the time. There’s the government doing the right thing for the population, but the unjust weights and measures that Israel’s held to a standard that no other country in the world has. There are more resolutions against Israel than any other nation. And it is a democratic nation. So there’s that level. But as a believer, how can you read the same scriptures and see that God says, I will never forsake my covenant with Israel, not until the moon and the stars pass away. And if that’s even if Israel falls away, I will redeem them. I will bring them back to their own land. You cannot read the Bible literally

(47:56):
And somehow figure that the Jewish people are no longer the people of God. That covenant. And actually the way I look at it is if God were to abandon his covenant with Israel, then there’s nothing to say that his covenant with us couldn’t be changed. Yeah. We should be terrifi as welled. Right. So the faithfulness of God is guaranteed by his faithfulness continued with Israel. Totally. And so I think that’s something that we just have to really continue to work at. I love to have conversations with people opening up the word of God and just saying, is God really the same yesterday, today, and forever more? Or are we now changing it based on, oh, the new covenant? No. Well, that means that we can now put these things in a symbolic category, and now we’re the new church, we’re the new Israel. It just doesn’t make sense

David (48:42):
Because

Ben (48:43):
Of we are, everything that our belief is founded upon is the fact that he’s faithful to Israel. So that’s one thing I think for the end times is very important, is those who turn their backs on Israel are going to find themselves in Zacharia as one of those nations that are fighting against God’s very plan and are going to be surprised. Even 78 years ago, it was a miracle that the modern state of Israel came about in a day,

David (49:06):
And

Ben (49:06):
That the un voted and ratified for them to come into existence. I mean, what a miracle that is.

David (49:11):
Totally.

Ben (49:11):
Because that vote, if it happened a day would not pass.

David (49:14):
No.

Ben (49:14):
And so I think that we just have to say, yeah, it’s not perfect. It’s not fully redeemed, but clearly on the prophetic direction of what God wants to do in bringing his people back to that land.

David (49:26):
Yeah. Well, before we leave, what resources would you recommend to someone who is listening to this but wants to go deeper, wants more, whether it’s end times or just right, living within understanding this Gentile framework and how we’re to be a light? What would you recommend?

Ben (49:44):
Well, we have tremendous resources within both Tik Kon Global and Tik Kon America. And my dad has written over 20 books, not all of them on this topic, but all kinds of topics. I would say Israel, the Church on. And the Last Days is a great book written by Asher in traitor. And my father, co-authored really lays out some of these key points. What does the last days look like? How do we walk through that? What’s the theology for it? But we have a love for the whole body of Messiah. It’s not just about the Jewish people coming to faith, but it’s about the whole world coming back into the family of God.

David (50:20):
This

Ben (50:20):
Is the Ephesians two power of that wall of separation being torn down. And it’s us having this joint relationship of mutual blessing

David (50:28):
When something in that book that I think is so key is the gospel of the kingdom versus the gospel of eternity is how it’s often portrayed. Like, oh, you’re good out of hell free card. And it’s like, wait, what about the transforming life that it’s supposed to have right here and right now? Which is a lot of what you’re talking about, the kingdom.

Ben (50:46):
And I would say, look, the Gateway Center for Israel has some of the best videos.

David (50:50):
Wow.

Ben (50:50):
Teaching. I’m serious. Look at that in a simple, edible way to get these

David (50:57):
Concepts

Ben (50:58):
And just walking through the scriptures. And I think that participating in dialogues invite us to come and just have a dialogue with your leaders. I think more important than having us in the pulpit

David (51:09):
Is

Ben (51:09):
Having a forum with the leadership teams where they can ask questions and really interact, doing seminar format things where there’s lots of time for questions and answers. Opening the word of God together, that’s much more meaningful than just a 40 minute or a half hour preaching time.

David (51:24):
Totally.

Ben (51:25):
And so I think that the more conversations that we can have, the more that we can show just how the word of God can be opened in a broader way to see these things in their full revelation, that’s the way to do it.

David (51:37):
So how can we reach out to you?

Ben (51:39):
So my website, tikkun america.org, T-I-K-K-U-N america.org. Or you can go to tikkun global.org and that’s our global ministry with lots of different preaching and teaching.

David (51:52):
And there’s ways they can reach out to you to come.

Ben (51:54):
Yeah, absolutely. And then through that, they can reach out to me and I’d be happy to personal communication, and we can do that through that website.

David (52:01):
Beautiful.

Ben (52:02):
Great.

David (52:02):
Well, thanks for coming on today for allowing us to dive into not only end time stuff, but also make it practical and how we’re supposed to live, which I think is powerful. So thank you for coming on. Thank you, David. Having me on. Well, thank you for listening. Please look at some of our other episodes. Go to our website, go to Koon Global or Koon America’s website and continue to grow. As we often say, pray, learn and relate. Pray for Israel and the Jewish people. Learn and then relate to the Jewish people. Ask Jewish friends to come and open the scriptures together. See if there’s a Messianic synagogue in your area. We don’t want to do this in a vacuum as Gentiles, but to do this with full unity of Jew and Gentile. If that’s all we have for today, we’ll see you next time.