The End Times & Israel

I think a lot of people have this picture of Jesus comes in the clouds and there he is, the son of man and it kind of waves his magic wand. No, Jesus is coming back as a mighty warrior. He’s coming back to wage war against his enemies. He’s coming back to crush the powers of darkness and march on this military campaign through the Middle East, and he’s going to save Israel and bring them into the land and the wilderness blossoms. And it’s just this whole picture that’s there in scripture about Jesus. And I think when you talk about fixing your hope on him, I think there’s a lot there to understand in that way.

Hey everybody, welcome to the Covenant and Conflict podcast. I’m excited today because we have a really special guest speaking on a topic that we haven’t really waded into yet. We’re going to be joined in a minute by Travis Snow who’s authored three books looking at prophecy, biblical prophecy and different things related to that. So you’re really going to enjoy this conversation. I think it’s going to give you some practical understanding on this really complicated subject. Let’s get at it.

So Travis, you’ve written a few books now actually quite quickly because when I met you, actually, I think Dr. David Rudolph introduced me to you at a banquet that we had years ago. And I knew your wife, Tali, who’s a Jewish believer, and Dr. Rudolph introduced you to me as Travis is a mensch. And I know Dr. Rudolph doesn’t use that word very often, someone with great stature, but I don’t think had published any books at that point. So walk us through, you’ve published three now, and the reason why we wanted to talk with you is because you, I think, model an understanding of these prophetic texts in the Bible that point to end times events that many Christians are fascinated by. But I feel because of your understanding of God’s covenant with the Jewish people being married to a Jewish believer, you probably can’t get too crazy with your theology, right? She can reign you into reality. What about the Jewish stuff? Travis, what about me? So just walk us through how you got into being interested in this.

Into prophecy and that whole world. So I’ve always been interested in prophecy. I got saved 20 years ago and I was studying the book of Daniel, I think within the first week or two after I got saved. Right to the deep end. Yeah, it just happened. I turned on a radio program and it was a radio program about politics and religion and prophecy and the end times. So it’s always kind of been there on the back burner. But then when I was graduating from seminary in 2014, I was working for another ministry doing mostly Jewish evangelism. And so in the context of that ministry, I was having to teach Passover Seders, teach the Messiah and the Passover, digging into certain prophecies in the Old Testament, the whole Messianic prophecy world. And this is where Jesus is in the prophecies of Isaiah. So I started coming across more and more of these kind of prophetic texts that would typically have to do with what people call eschatology and the study of the end times. And that all kind of intersected with trying to understand Israel and Israel’s place and how to teach that to the church. So I really started digging into Messianic prophecy more and more and then kind of Israel in prophecy and the history of replacement theology, things like that. And then that was kind of just the segue into all of the other prophetic topics and I just started putting different files on my computer and writing out different little teachings. And then eventually that all just kind of blossomed into, I think I should start publishing some books on these topics.

Alright, so this is sort of a new thing, right David? We’re kind of diving into a pool we’ve not swam in much, which is just end times Israel prophecy. So Travis, why don’t you just help us and those who are watching or listening understand very simplistically evangelical Christianity, an overview of evangelical Christianity as it relates to the end times.

Okay, so when this topic comes up, there’s a lot of sensationalism that typically surrounds it. Can you define sensationalism?Sensationalism, we’re going to do this a lot in this podcast. Sensationalism would be things that are taken to an extreme that can be unhealthy or can bring about a lot of fear about what might be happening on the world stage and just things of that nature or that the antichrist is right around the corner and the one world government is coming and all these kind of things, which you could debate the specifics of those. And so that’s why people really shy away from prophecy in the end times. But one thing I always want to emphasize is a couple of things. First of all, the Bible itself is roughly 20 to 25% prophecy. So it’s a huge part of the scriptures. And one thing I was talking to David about just off camera before we started is that for me, when you look at the narrative of scripture, it is actually a prophetic narrative from the beginning after the fall, Genesis 3, there’s this prophecy about the crushing Messiah who’s going to come and crush the head of the serpent. That actually is an end times prophecy. It’s about when Jesus comes back and the completion of God’s plan of how he’s going to reverse the fall and bring us back to Eden. So for me, it’s not so much that I’m just fascinated by the end times or totally absorbed with the headlines every day, although I watch that stuff, it’s more about the biblical narrative actually is an end times narrative. We are awaiting Jesus to come back and to reestablish Eden and to defeat the powers of darkness. So I always want to keep it more focused on Christ and focused on his victory and focused on the blessed hope. And then from there you’re going to get these other topics that have to be dealt with, like the antichrist and the rapture and all the controversial stuff. But I’m always trying to bring it more back to just the blessed hope and how can studying prophecy and eschatology help you in your daily life as a believer? If you’re suffering, if you’re struggling, if you don’t have hope, if you need some hope and you need some help from the Lord and you want to know what the ultimate end goal is that we’re all moving towards. And then of course all the other stuff, it’s very interesting and fun and it’s in the Bible, so it’s fair game, let’s deal with it. But just trying to keep the focus more grounded where I think it should be.

So you’ve written three books. Walk us through them just briefly, title and then the synopsis of each one.

Are you a publisher, right? Give us a pitch. That’s what publishers ask you. The first one was called the Passover King, and it’s really exploring how Passover is related to the end times and the return of Jesus, which is I think a very overlooked topic, but actually very central in the Bible, how Passover and the Exodus story is used by the prophets as a template for what Jesus will do when he returns. And so it’s kind of a genesis to Revelation, a big picture going through lots of different issues. The second book is called the 70 Weeks Jubilee, and that’s on Daniel chapter nine and the famous 70 weeks prophecy. So it’s kind of the opposite of the first one. It’s a very granular look at Daniel 9:24-27, just what is that four verses? So it’s just a deep dive into Daniel 70 weeks, all the different interpretations and Christian views, how it relates to Israel. And then the third one is called the biblical feast and the return of Jesus. And there I’m going through every feast in Leviticus 23, all the major annual feast starting with Passover, going through Tabernacles and kind of just giving a roadmap for how I think the feasts reveal what will happen when Jesus comes back and sets up his kingdom.

Wow, it sounds like when I edit one of David’s papers or articles, it’s like, hey, there’s four verses and here’s 35 pages. You guys have a lot in common. Yeah.

Well I think it’s interesting you talk about the prophecies being hopeful if you’re suffering. It feels like throughout most of Christian history the prophecies have been something that breed hope. And currently I feel like they breed fear. When someone talks about the end times, it’s usually not get excited, usually get ready, get your bunkers, buy some gold, get some guns – prepping. How do you feel as someone who’s constantly writing on and researching that, do you feel like the community, the end times community is up in arms at what you’re writing, in agreement with your writing, or kind of indifferent because you’re not getting enough doom and gloom for them?

I think it’s going to depend on the context. I definitely think there is an element of needing to be prepared, and I think that’s real. So there are some sober warnings that Jesus gives about the virgins and preparing your oil and you can’t prepare in the final moments and wherever we are in history and whenever these things are going to happen, and I’m not a date setter, but I think there’s an element of preparation that is sobering without getting too heavy with it. But I generally find that maybe I’m kind of in the minority or I don’t fit in with all the end time stuff again, I really don’t like to sensationalize it. I don’t like to date set it. I just want to be very careful with the text of scripture, weigh different things, use a lot of scholarship, use commentaries, try to ground it there in some sense of academia without going too far. So yeah, I would find that the prophecy world in general, it’s harder for me to relate, to be honest. A lot of it is a little bit out there for me. And so we do the best we can.

So walk us through, we were talking about this a little bit before we jumped in modern what would be called pre-millennial dispensationalism. Can we define that? Yeah, brush my teeth just from saying that it’s like wow, but it is a relatively modern theological position and now it’s breaking out into a lot of different fragments. There’s different types of dispensationalism even now, right? There’s like three or four different kinds. So it’s in a constant evolution. But from my understanding of it, and you correct me if I’m wrong, is that this is relatively new within the last couple hundred years, this framework. Is that right?

On the dispensational side? I would probably say yes. Okay. Pre-millennialism is the view that Jesus comes back and then establishes the millennium for a thousand years, and then after that you enter the eternal state. So you’re kind of in the bronze Age right now. And then there’s the silver and then there’s the gold. So there’s kind of these three major phases. So pre-millennialism goes back to some of the church fathers. But as far as the dispensational side, yeah, I would agree. I’m actually not an expert, expert on the history of dispensationalism, but that’s more recent and there are positive aspects to dispensationalism. Many things I would agree with and other things that I would disagree with.

Let’s define it though. We were talking about this earlier, dispensationalism, what is it?

So I would define dispensationalism as the view that Israel and the church are pretty much distinct. They’re two totally distinct entities. So God, he has his plan for Israel and he has his plan for the church. And so they’re kind of separate things running along separate tracks. And on the one hand, dispensationalism has been good because in contrast to replacement theology, it has held that national Israel is still important in the plan of God. So dispensationalism put Israel back in the plan of God along with the church, which is a good thing. Whereas historically the church just said the church is Israel and national Israel doesn’t matter. So in that sense it’s a good thing, but keeping them so distinct like that. And also, let me backtrack a minute. Dispensationalism on the issue of hermeneutics or biblical interpretation and how you interpret prophecies has been a good thing. They take them more “literally”, they’ll use what’s called a historical grammatical method of interpretation, which just means let’s try to understand what this meant to the prophets. And if Ezekiel was talking about Israel and if Ezekiel was talking about the temple, we’re going to say that’s what he meant. We’re not going to spiritualize it and reconfigure it to mean the church. Exactly. Yeah, that’s good. So dispensationalism has been really good on certain aspects of interpretation, but it creates problems too when you keep them so distinct as if God, they’re totally separate. And without going into too much of left field here, I think Paul for example, in Romans has more of an olive tree theology where Israel and the church, they’re kind of distinct but kind of overlapping in linked in a way. So I think dispensationalism got us part of the way there. And really why I’m so grateful for Messianic Jewish theology and what you guys are doing and what’s happening here at Gateway is because Messianic Jewish theology has been able to sort out and iron out some of the problems with dispensationalism and how Israel relates to the church a little bit differently.

So in classic dispensational theology, if you believe that there’s essentially two tracks. So you have a church’s track and you have Israel’s track, I’m assuming that’s where you get the theology that many people have in the church that say Israel doesn’t need Jesus because they have their own track, they have the Sinai Covenant, we have the new Covenant. And then how does that play out when you get to the end times? Because obviously the most common questions that Israel ministry people get is like, how does this relate to the end times? Where is this Ezekiel 37? We’re constantly trying to locate it in Israel. So has that happened?

Yeah, so it’s interesting you bring up the distinction in regard to salvation. So most dispensationalist, they would not say that Jewish people are saved apart from faith in Jesus. They would still say that you have to believe in Jesus. There is kind of an extreme version of it that maybe grew out of it called dual covenant theology, which does say that Israel doesn’t need Jesus, they don’t need the gospel because God’s doing their separate thing. But that would be, I wouldn’t say that’s characteristic of dispensationalism, but like you mentioned since if we’re just going to go here, let’s do it. This is fascinating. I’m having a great time. Once you get to the end times and the rapture, the dispensational view on the distinction between Israel and the church that’s really supporting a lot of the pre-tribulation rapture theology, because the idea is God’s got these two separate tracks and the tribulation, ironically, the tribulation is really just for Israel, which there is some truth to that, but not that it’s exclusively for them. And so the church has to be gone before God can deal with Israel during the end. So we’re going to be raptured before the tribulation we’re gone and now God’s back to focusing on Israel, because they’re these two very distinct things. And so that’s where we’re getting into I think some of the theological, let’s say extrapolations and assumptions being made that support dispensationalism that I think are problematic.

And we’re not trying to advance one particular view over another. But I do think one of the things that people ask me a lot is what does the Messianic Jewish community at large think about some of these things? And you brought that up already and I feel like we know, we at Gateway have learned so much from our Messianic Jewish friends and you mentioned their ability to iron out some of these things. And I’m not trying to put you on the spot or say that you have to make a conclusive guess at this, but I mean most Messianic Jews don’t view God’s dealing with this merge point as like a pre-trib thing, right? I mean they don’t see this as Israel and the church are distinct and God’s going to lift one out to deal with the other. And you brought that up because we, I’m saying we who have a more of a messianic perspective, believe that the offer of Jesus is available here and now everyone needs to reconcile with that or sort through that at some point on their own. It’s not that we just say, well, you know what, just wait till later. God’s going to helicopter us out of here and then it’ll be your turn. So what’s your just context for that, Travis?

As far as what Messianic Jews believe about this?

Yeah, just what’s their perspective on this? It could be because we have the evangelical, if you will, Christian dispensational perspective, but the Messianic Jewish community who do understand the Jewish context, which you write a lot about, what do you find is the more broad view there?

I would say it depends on who you’re talking to. There definitely is a dispensational stream coming out of especially the earlier generations of Messianic Judaism that was definitely there. I don’t have exact numbers. I would guess that now it’s probably less because of how Messianic Jewish theology has kind of developed that they’re going to be much less in the classical dispensationalism. That would be my guess would be the majority would not be. But there are some streams there. You’ll find it for sure.

But you don’t land obviously on that point of view. So let’s wind it back to you. So talk us through some of the reasons why you feel that that isn’t necessarily an accurate understanding of what scripture is presenting. So on the issue of the rapture or the issue of classical dispensationalism?

Well, yeah, I mean I feel like look it’s the elephant in the room, the rapture. Alright, are we going to get out of here first or last? Okay, let’s just get it out on the floor. No one here is trying to say pre-trib post-trib, mid trib, no trib, who cares? Whatever.

But even if you can just poke holes and say, here’s some issues with this. Because I think what we tend to come in contact with our extremes and what we like to do is kind of muddy those waters a little bit and say, it actually is not that clear. Let’s bring in this tension. And I’m assuming with a lot of things with the end times some mystery, you have to live in tension with extremes and this mystery of there’s a level of this, we don’t know. So how would you look at pre-trib theology, church gets raptured out, Israel then stays and I’m assuming gets judged. That’s usually what I hear. So what are the issues that you see with that?

So for me, let’s just start with the basic. I would say Matthew 24. In Matthew 24, the disciples ask Jesus about the end times. This is the olive discourse? Yes. And he gives them this whole sermon about future tribulation and falling away and the antichrist. And then there’s this gathering together that he speaks of after the tribulation. So it’s very clear after the tribulation language, which to me precludes a pre-tribulation rapture. Now what a pre-trib person would say is that when Jesus is speaking there, he’s not addressing the disciples as representatives of the church. They would say he’s only speaking to the disciples as representatives of national Israel. So it’s a very strange way of interpreting the gospels because you wouldn’t really use that logic in a lot of other places in the gospels. So what I’m saying is the whole pre-trib system depends on making Matthew 24 a word of exhortation and instruction given only to non-believing Jews and not the church. And when you look at the language that Jesus uses, he uses the exact same language there as Paul does when he’s talking about the rapture. It’s in first and second, maybe both Thessalonians, same exact language. And so it seems like Paul is just reiterating what Jesus is saying and what’s ironic is pretty much all pre-tribbers would say that when Paul is talking about that stuff in Thessalonians, he’s talking about the rapture, but then when they come to Matthew 24, they want to read it in a different way. And for many reasons, that’s just what I could say off the top of my head, Matthew 24, I think it just doesn’t work for me personally. Again, everyone’s mileage is going to vary. They’re going to come to their own conclusions. But that would be the core central text for me to kind of start out from.

So let’s back out from there because like you said, there are these foundational texts. I mean everybody knows the one out of 1 Thessalonians 4, which I think that’s where that is. And then we will be caught up together with him in the clouds. Yes. But let’s back out from that because I think this is the importance of understanding the Jewish context of scripture, understanding scripture. You started by talking about this, scripture as a narrative of the whole, that it isn’t just these dispensations in a way that here’s this dispensation and now we’re in this one. And so you have to understand this one differently because of this thing happening. I think that for our audience and for us and from our point of view at Gateway is that this is the beauty of understanding Israel is you see God’s through line. There’s a centrality to Israel and the Jewish people and that the Gentiles are added in. You mentioned this addition theology, olive tree theology. So what are the other scriptures? You’ve dove heavily into  Daniel. How does that interact with what we read in Matthew 24 and what Paul’s position or maybe his apocalyptic worldview is?

Yeah, it’s an interesting question. I mean as far as Daniel, when you get into Daniel, see the church isn’t really addressed directly there. And then I guess what I’m saying is what I continually see Paul doing is bringing the church into Israel’s story, which is actually pretty amazing because it means that when I read Isaiah and Isaiah’s talking about Israel being blessed in the future, he’s talking about Israel. But there is a sense in which as a gentile believer, I’m brought into that. So it just goes back to how I don’t see these distinctions of here’s Israel, I see that Paul is still preserving Israel’s place, but bringing the church and bringing even Gentile believers into that story. Like he says, adopted into that family. Exactly. And in Ephesians, he talks about the commonwealth. You were strangers and now you’re brought into the commonwealth. So that’s where even though the Old Testament prophets, they’re not telling you this is for the church and this is for Israel. What I see is that narrative is there and it’s about Israel. And then when you get the New Testament, the church is kind of folded into the narrative. And so when you talk about things like a tribulation, the Jeremiah calls at the time of Jacob’s trouble, you kind of have these things folded in together where you see that Israel and the church have overlapping, maybe not a hundred percent the same, but there’s this overlapping narrative in way that things are unfolding with both still there. And of course getting very practical, just us as believers needing to understand that because antisemitism is only going to get worse. You read the prophets, the time of trouble and suffering. So we as the church need to really understand what’s happening and what our role is going to be if we’re there. And maybe I’m not there to see it, maybe it’s my daughter, but still don’t I have a responsibility to help her understand. Or maybe it’s my daughter’s daughter. There’s only so many more links in the chain that could be there, and every link in the chain is important. So I think practically understanding that aspect of us being brought into the story, it has a lot of pastoral implications, which again is where I’m trying to get to not just end time speculation, but grounded, equipping what needs to be understood and taught ahead of time, that kind of thing.

Well, I think that’s beautiful about what you’re doing because you’re helping people. You’re looking at something and it’s sort of like you’re explaining yourself or you’re explaining scripture towards that and you’re using that as just sort of a flag to plant and then say, now let’s look backwards and see all these things that we can actually learn through the process. And I think for most people, when it comes to end times, I would say the average Christian is probably confused at best or avoidant in that it’s like, ah, it’s so confusing. Also, how does it benefit me? I mean, that’s been my positioned personally that has just been more like, I don’t know that’s going to get itself worked out. So why do I need to understand? But if using that as a point of understanding what is God saying to us now? How can we prepare ourselves for what he is doing now, what is going to happen later, that’s a different ballgame because this is why I appreciate what you do, Travis, is you’re helping people understand what the text says, not so that we can anticipate a future event, but so that we can learn and grow right now and say, God, how can we participate in what you’re doing on the timeline of redemptive history?

And so I want to ask a practical question, which I know is not very common in the end times world. So if I’m someone who I’m not trying to guess the day of Jesus’ return, I’m not trying to guess what these symbols mean. Why is the study of the end times important for me and my daily relationship with the Lord?

Okay, I love the question. I would want to center that actually on the kingdom, the kingdom of God, that’s a good place to start. So Jesus is coming back to actually rule the earth as the king of the entire earth and to create a new heavens and a new earth. And there’s going to, you’re have a new body, there’s going to be good food, there’s going to be beautiful architecture. So good. The glory of God is going to dwell on the earth in an actual temple. So we’re not just spirit beings with wings, right? You’re living on the new earth with Jesus ruling and reigning with him. And so for me, I’ve shared this before, I shared this at a conference recently. I’ve had five foot and ankle surgeries. I’ll never be as active again in sports and doing everything I want to do. So I’ve dealt with a lot there. And there can be times where just I think the weight of your life kind of really weighs you down and you wonder why God is not answering your prayers. And you read these Psalms and God delivers me and he raises me up and the Lord’s my helper and you read Isaiah, I’m going to make her blossom like the wilderness going to blossom and you’re going to get a new name and all this stuff. And you read this stuff and you’re thinking, I want to lay hold of that and I want that to be true, and is God telling me that he’s going to do that for me now? Maybe you will get healed, but a lot of people don’t. Most people don’t. Let’s just be real. And so I think having this kingdom perspective and understanding that no, every single one of those promises
Is actually God’s promise to you. You just have to wait for it. God is actually 100% guaranteed through the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ to fulfill every single one of those promises in your life. And so everything you go through in life, he wants you to just hang onto the hope of the kingdom that you’re not going to get it all in this life. You’re not going to be totally fulfilled and see all your dreams come true and have complete a hundred percent healing and live like some superhuman on this earth. And never die. But God still wants us to lay hold of those things in the kingdom and to really understand that he is good and that all of that is true, but it’s just a timing thing. Just like Christ had to suffer first and then enter his glory, it’s kind of the same with us. And so for me, a lot of it, like you say practically, it comes back to, I don’t think that believers, Christians that I run into on a daily basis, I don’t think they understand the beauty and the glory of the kingdom enough and what is in store. And then I could also go to Jesus and say, I don’t think a lot of believers really understand who Jesus is and what he’s coming back to do, and just how captivating and breathtaking and awesome that is.

What would you say that is to our viewers?

I wrote three books about it.

Read his book, David. Come on.

Do you think that we over-spiritualize things and make things kind of ethereal?

Yeah, I think a lot of people have this picture of Jesus comes in the clouds and there he is, the son of man, and it kind of waves his magic wand. No, Jesus is coming back as a mighty warrior. He’s coming back to wage war against his enemies. He’s coming back to crush the powers of darkness and march on this military campaign through the Middle East, and he’s going to save Israel and bring them into the land and the wilderness blossoms. And it’s just this whole picture that’s there in scripture about Jesus. And I think when you talk about fixing your hope on him, I think there’s a lot there to understand in that way.

And this is why it’s so important to reckon with some of the Old Testament Hebrew scripture promises like you have in so many of your books, because we’re not talking about New Testament quips. This is a picture like you said at the beginning. We’re starting in Genesis, we go through to Revelation. David says this all the time. We are in the pages of the Bible right now. Revelation hasn’t happened yet fully obviously. And the other parts of the New Testament, Acts did happen. So here we are, and I think this is where if you will, the end times conversation just cheapens it in a way. And I know they’re not intentionally doing that, but for those of us here, because it doesn’t give us something to understand our present issues. And I 100% agree with you, this is what I tell people all the time. When people go to Israel and they go there and they experience something viscerally, it’s not a spiritual thing, it is a spiritual thing, but there is something there that touches them in a way they’ve never been touched before. And I think most people don’t realize a big component of what that is is they’re experiencing heaven on earth. They’re literally experiencing things that are written about in scripture in front of their eyes. They can touch it, they can smell it, they can hear it, they can taste it. And I think without people knowing it in their soul, they’re beginning to realize the kingdom of God is real. And it’s going to be based on this earth. And I feel like that gives me a lot more hope than in just even thinking about some eternal spiritual by and by. It’s like what you just said, even Travis, and this is what I appreciate so much about our mutual friend, Joel Richardson, and some of the work he’s done. Even Jesus being this just warrior who the Old Testament scriptures talk about him being stained in the blood of his enemies, his robe. It’s like I don’t have to take revenge on my enemies because I know Jesus will do that and he’ll do it the right way. He won’t punish someone unjustly. And that to me is like, that makes this life so much more actually peaceful and exciting to know that God’s going to deal with all these things. And even for us who don’t live in Israel, in the nations, it makes me feel more rooted to my community here. I live in my community because God put me here to have a home and a yard to take care of it and let that influence my neighbors. So I just went off on a bender there. Love that. Sorry.

You’re going to all the right places, I mean Exactly. Yeah.

Well, something we’ve talked about too is how, and I’d love you to correct this, poke holes in this affirm that, whatever you want to do. We talked about how it seems like the Jewish community in the time of Second Temple Judaism had this understanding of Messiah being this warrior ready to judge, ready to rage war dipped with his robe and the blood stained of his enemies. And that’s not what they got. They got the suffering servant, Ben David, Ben Joseph, kind of dichotomy and how now we are very comfortable with the Ben Joseph. And we almost feel like Jesus is coming back as that same lamb, and we are going to have to be confronted with Ben David the lion, the one who’s ready to judge.

Ben means son of, by the way.

Yeah, son of – son of Joseph, son of David, thank you. And so I feel like that’s a tension that we have to navigate as The Church. But it seems like a very peculiar flip how they wanted Ben David and got Ben Joseph and now we want Ben Joseph when we’re getting Ben David. Whatever happens, Jesus comes to a crowd that’s like, no, no, no other one. Other one.

Yeah. I love the way you frame that. I’ve never actually thought about it exactly in that way. I’ve never actually thought about what you said about the church as kind of more comfortable with the son of Joseph, the suffering. And the other side. Actually recently there was this guy on Twitter, and he’s a pretty far to the progressive left spectrum of being a pastor. And I remember him saying, Jesus isn’t coming back to hurt anyone. All the sins have been dealt with at the cross. And so I think that that mindset is definitely there. And like you said, yeah, there’s a way to be involved and engaged politically, but even in an election season, you have to just let go to an extent. I’m not saying quietism where we just withdraw completely, but when you understand the trajectory of history and where we’re going, you’re not going to see the perfect Christian regime taking over America and have all your political dreams fulfilled through whoever it’s going to be. And I think that’s what you’re saying. It’s like staying grounded there in what Jesus is coming back to do. And he is the hope who will do that. And all lesser kings and politicians and magistrates, they might give you a taste and a flavor in some very small way, and that’s kind of the best you can hope for.

It’s amazing to me how many Christians, and I don’t blame any of them, don’t even know that Jesus is going to come back two a particular place. It’s this, he comes in the clouds thing. So when you ask them where is he going to come back to? They’re like, I don’t know Atlanta, I mean earth, right? It’s like, well, he has feet when he comes back, right? Yeah. Okay, well then if he’s going to come to earth, where is the point of connection? And when you offer them the possibility of Jerusalem, they’re like, What? Why would he go back there? But it just shows you, I think speaking to this a little bit, Travis, that we are all such a product of our environments. And I think for a lot of people, replacement theology is actually more caught than it is taught today. Most churches don’t teach replacement theology, but they’re still enmeshed in a lot of their theological points of view. Replacement theology is so a lot of people catch it, it kind of oozes out. And I think with this, a lot of people catch this, they catch the traditional dispensational sort of pre-rappturey spiritualization of everything. And so I think the average Christian, that’s where they’re at. They might even mentally not believe that, but a lot of the things that they read in scripture defaults that way. And so where can people start? Who are some, obviously we’re going to put links to your books in the description, but for you as you started into this going hyper practical, where should people start to begin just searching through some of this? Because it is like a tornado of opinion.

So I love, When a Jew Ruleslls the World, by Joel Richardson. I love that book. I mean, there’s a lot of great books on replacement theology, but without bogging people down with the long reading list, I would say that’s just a great framework book.

It’s on our top 10 list of books.

It really is so well done, and I always recommend it to people. And I want to go back to something you said about Israel and Jesus coming back to Israel, which I think ties into needing to read scripture in this prophetic way. Because a lot of people, when they read about Abraham and the Abrahamic Covenant, they’re just thinking, oh, God had to give them the land, and so the Jews could go into their land, so then the Israel could be there and Jesus could come, and now that’s all done. But when you start to really read it as Moses the author, as he wants you to see it, it’s exactly what you said, that Israel is God’s down payment, that he’s going to renew the entire earth. So God says, let me start with this, people in this land, and they’re like me placing my flag on this earth, that I’m committed this earth. So when I’m reading the Abrahamic story and the covenant, and God is giving them the land, that’s like God establishing his beachhead after Eden. So he stays committed to that land because that’s how it’s going to unfold. It’s going to be the land. And then you get to the Davidic and it comes to the city. So now you have Jerusalem. So that’s again why it’s so important to just understand how to read scripture with this eschatological prophetic lens. Because what you’re seeing there, when God makes the covenant with Abraham, that is, you could say, an eschatological, it’s like an end times act. And God is saying, this is it. This is where I’m planning my flag. And so being able to read it that way, and then of course, get the resources that can just give you a better framework for Israel’s place. And that explains why Israel is so controversial on the world stage, because the powers of darkness know this. So I explain it like this. There’s this guy Matisyahu, he’s a Jewish reggae rapper, and
he has this great song, and in one of his songs he says something like, it’s not about the land or the sea, not the country, but the dwelling of his majesty. So the reason that the land matters is because that’s where God has chosen. And so when you’re looking at it in that way, you can understand, why does everyone hate Israel? Why am I seeing people all over the world, down in South America, Central America, Europe, because Israel is the reminder to the powers of darkness that God stays faithful to those covenants, and then that constant reminder of Israel being there, and Satan always seeing the Jews, they’re still here. They’re still in their land. That’s a reminder that Jesus is coming back there to fulfill those covenants and completely defeat him. So it’s just a much better, I think, framework that leads to so much more practical understanding of the Bible and life and what’s happening and all those things.

It really is amazing once you remove the lens of the assumption that God has replaced Israel and the church is his new vehicle for redemption, or that his promises have been fulfilled, these two versions of replacement theology, right? Like the traditional Supersessionism, which is just the church replace Israel. You have this newer, more still widely accepted fulfillment theology, which is that no, Jesus replaced Israel. There’s no need for Israel. And the covenantal promises to Israel were all fulfilled in Jesus, which is problematic. But you remove that lens and all of a sudden you start to see things. Oh yeah, I think in Joel, not Joel 2 Zechariah 2, he says, that’s my land. The nations tried to divide my land. So to your point, Travis, it’s not so much Israel saying, this is our land. They’re saying this is God’s, he gave it to us to steward it, but we’re trying to maintain the beachhead. We’re keeping the flag flying, and it really creates such a coherence in scripture. So let me just kind of ask you an ending question, unless David has a few. Are you looking for your water? Yeah. Here you go. Thank you. Yeah. What should people do? How can people talk more about this more comfortably? What are some of the things you’ve given us so many great little ways to understand this, but I think again, for the average person, they don’t even know how to enter the conversation. So what are some just basic framework ideas that you have for people, Christians, followers of Jesus?

Yeah, I would say a lot of it comes down to the right teachers and having the right teachers who can steer you in the right way.

List us a couple that you’ve learned from.

We already mentioned Joel Richardson, Walter Kaiser. He was a great Old Testament scholar. He’s done more on kind of the Messiah and prophecy and the covenants. So that for me, those would be two. And then, I mean, there’s so much out there.

One I’ve been seeing really, Dr. Allen Kirschner?

Oh, Alan Kirschner. He’s more into the rapture if you really want to get into rapture stuff.

Like looking at the rapture critically, you mean?

Yeah, he does some stuff on Israel. Actually. He did publish another book, but Alan Kirschner is great. I feel like the guy at the award show who’s forgetting all the people that – I don’t know. I would have to sit down and really hash it out. But I sometimes say it’s better to read five books by the right people than to read 50 or a 100 books by the wrong people. So good. So just if you get the right teachers and the people that are steering you in the right way, and then just understanding that if you see the whole fear mongering sensationalized crazy thing, I mean, just look at how Jesus and the apostles taught. Just look at their model. It’s not really the model you want to follow. They talked about it in a different way. So just kind of look at the overall spirit and the culture surrounding prophecy teachers and end times. And that will tell you a lot right there.

That’s really good. Yeah. Is there any, we talked about removing the replacement theology framework allows you to see clearly. Is there any other big rocks that you would say, if you’re going to get into the end times, you’re going to read Jesus’s discord in Matthew or Paul’s letter to the Thessalonians, either remove this rock or have this framework or understand this? I know sometimes I’ll read and I’m like, wait, was this talking about the fall of Rome or is this talking about the fall of the world? So are there any healthy frameworks or rocks that we can keep in mind?

So the other big one, and this could be a whole other topic in itself, part two of the podcast, would be preterism versus futurism. Preterism is the view, you’ll find that they’ll say, most of these prophecies were fulfilled in 70 AD, and that’s a huge one you’re going to encounter in commentaries and books and teaching. They’re going to say that what Jesus is saying, for example, in Matthew 24, that all happened in 70 AD. It’s all kind of with the destruction of the temple, the destruction of Jerusalem, and the scattering, and the idolatry. There’s the statue of Zeus. Exactly. That was the idol worship that happened. Exactly. And I probably get the most into preterism in my second book on Daniel. But just the framework of understanding that the prophets, they’re grounded in history and they do talk about historical events, but they’re always, ultimately, their final horizon is always the kingdom and the future and what we would call the second coming. So the replacement theology kind of goes hand in hand with the preterism. And so you really want to get more into the, what do we call it? Not replacement theology. What are we, continuationists? I’ve never heard the great. I like the olive tree theology, and then more of a futurist perspective, I would say. So that’s another big, huge framework that you want to establish. And then if you want to go all the way, I think the Jewish framework and really getting into, like you mentioned, second temple period, Judaism. How were Jews in the time of Jesus within that Jewish framework, how were they thinking about this stuff? That’s a huge one. And that’s where I’ve tried to spend a lot of time myself, is just getting into the mindset of first century Jews on prophecy and the kingdom and eschatology.

And there’s a lot of scholarship even from the Jewish world that’s come out about this. And just understanding just the cultural thinking of the time and really getting into that. And that’s why it’s amazing to live in the times that we do. There’s this divine reclamation of an understanding of what was happening when scripture was written. Totally. And reconnecting to it. So good.

Well, Travis, thanks. This is awesome.

Thank you guys.

There should be a part two because we only scratched the surface.

Yeah, you agreed to that when you said that.

Sure. Yeah, 100 percent.

So thanks y’all for, and we’re going to put some links to Travis’ books in the description so that you can buy them. I encourage you to buy them and then we can put some links into some of the other resources that he mentioned. But stay curious and we’ll see you next time.