Israeli Settlers & the West Bank: How Should We View the Conflict?

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I’ve already made their blood pressure go up if any of them are watching, because we are actually allowing ourselves to refer to it as the West Bank for them. It is not the West Bank. It is Judea and Samaria. It is the biblical heartland. They’re giving it the names that are properly given by the Bible. But at the same time, you know this David, we’re practical people. So that’s what the international world knows it by. I don’t have a problem calling it the West Bank because it is a place that has a undetermined status. There hasn’t been an international ruling that it is definitely Palestinian land or definitely Israeli land. So you live in this sort of tension and what is it called? Something suspended in a suspended state like this covenant and conflict, something like that. Yeah.

Welcome back to another episode we have with us today, my friend, my teammate, my boss Nick Les Meister. Today I want to talk about the West Bank. Okay. But before we do that, can you kind of ground us in the history that’s gotten us to where we are? What is the West Bank? What does that term mean? What common places would we be able to associate with the West Bank and how do we get to that spot?
Yeah, it’s probably a term a lot of people here, but they don’t really actually know what it means. So literally geographically, it is the western side of the Jordan River. So the Jordan River, as most people know, runs between what is the land of Israel and the current country of Jordan or the kingdom of Jordan. And this is the lowest place on Earth really runs down into geographically speaking, shout out to Dr. Wayne Wilkes, the Rift Valley. So the West Bank is the western side of that river, which encompasses essentially the rift valley of the Jordan Valley and up into the Central Hill country, which is the biblical heartland. So if you’re a reader of the Bible, then we’re talking about a mountain range that is known as the Samaritan Mountain. So much of it is called Samaria. Much of it’s called Judea because you have Samaria north of Jerusalem, Judea south of Jerusalem, and it’s a mountain range that kind of runs all along as if you’re looking at this, from my perspective, from a west to east, you’ve got the Mediterranean Sea. The coastal plains goes up into the Central Hill country with an elevation of up to around 3000 feet, then dives down to almost 1500 feet below sea level into the Jordan Valley before you’re going back up to 5,000 feet above sea level in the Trans Jordan Plateau, which is where we’ve been, as we all know. Yeah, the trans Jordan. Right. This is
Easy. This is refresher. You
Can use an amount of my wife. It is homeschooled for a long time and she says, cool cats, ride trains, coastal Plains, central Hill Country, rift Valley Trans Jordan Plateau. You don’t remember that from when we took you to Jordan.
Of course. I
Don’t remember that. Okay. Back to the subject matter. So the West Bank is essentially this land, this hill country land in some part of the coastal plains that right now is predominantly home to Palestinians because when in 1947, when the United Nations voted in late November of 1947, UN resolution 180 1, it was to create a homeland and a partition in this area. I don’t want to go too far back into the history, but basically all of the current modern nation and land of Israel and Jordan was run and ruled by the Ottomans
From
The late 14 hundreds up until the early 19 hundreds when the Ottomans threw their hat in with Germany and World War I. They lost and then Britain and France essentially became the caretakers of that area. They called it British mandate or French mandate mandate, Ottoman area.
It
Was referred to as Palestine at the time because that was the name that developed over time after the Romans kicked the Jews out in 1 35 ad. So the UN resolution in 1947 was advanced forward. I’m skipping through a ton of history here
Because
They realized that there’s Jewish people in this land that are claiming that it’s theirs and there’s Arab Palestinians in the land claiming that it’s theirs. So we’re going to partition the land and create two states for two groups of people. So the first partition for the Jewish people was mainly along that coastal plane and then down into the negative desert. It was a
Sliver of what?
It was a very small sliver of land of modern Israel. So the area of some of the coastal plains going up into the Central Hill country, into the mountains was given to the Palestinians. So Israel said yes to it. And then there was a war that broke out when they declared their independence in May 14th, 1948. And basically Jordan joined in on the fighting and helping the Palestinians, and they took over that area and Israel agreed to a 1949 like okay, war’s over.
By they you mean the Jordanians took over that area?
That’s right. Israel and Jordan agreed to stop their aggression in 1949 along what was called an armistice line. So it was basically a line that ran through this hill country area
That
Carved out the silhouette of what is now the West Bank. So it became the West Bank of Jordan because they occupied that land as Jordanian soil after 1949. So that was part of Jordan. Their military was in there. It went even into Jerusalem. So then what happened is in 1967, in the six day war in June of 19 67, 5 Arab countries attacked Israel. Israel preemptively attacked them and they drove them out of that land. They drove the Jordanians out of what was then the West Bank. And since 1967, Israel has had a military force essentially policing that region. But the Israelis
Didn’t necessarily claim it and say, this is ours. That’s right. Palestinians are out. There’s still the bulk of that. West Bank land is occupied by Palestinians, but the Israelis have the run of it.
Yeah, oversee it. They’re essentially now some people would say they’re occupying it with the military force. They are administrating it from 1967 until the nineties when something that Israel came to the table in a peace negotiation with the leadership of the Palestinians at the time, Yasser Arafat, who a lot of people know, and they came up with what was called Oslo, the Oslo Accords. Now the Oslo Accords took the West Bank and it divided it into three areas, area A, B, and C. 60% of the land is in area C because it’s pretty much uninhabited. So Israel has full military control and civilian control of area C, area B. Israel has joint security control and no civil control with the Palestinian authority. And areas A is all Palestinian control, Palestinian security, Palestinian civil Authority,
Those are mainly just cities in the West Bank. The biggest cities in the West Bank are Janine in the north. Then Nalu, which is biblical shechem, and then Hein and the South and Ramallah, which is the capital. So those areas then are kind of the seat of Palestinian livelihood. You’ve got about 4 million people that they estimate live in the West Bank in these cities. So Israel administrates part of this land, and then they’re now building, have been building since the 1967 settlements basically starting new towns in the land of what is area C, only in area C because the Jewish people, the Jewish people, so they’re not allowed to build in areas B or A. But there are people that illegally will go build in those areas because
When you say illegally, are they breaking Israeli law or Palestinian law?
Well, they’re breaking international law, which Israeli law has agreed to abide by.
That’s tension right
There. So they’re at odds with their own government.
Got it.
So I went out on some of these places. We went a couple of years ago. We went and visited an illegal settlement where somebody set up a house. And what’s happening is the government has this really weird cat and mouse game that they play because Israel’s government has essentially been right-leaning or right dominated, right-wing dominated for 17 years I think is how long Benjamin Netanyahu’s been in
Charge and what would you say? Because obviously we have our own in America, right and left. What would be the short definition of what Israeli right and left would
Be? It’s going to be more religious, more Jewish religious as the further right you go, it will be more conservative on a values basis. It’s not going to be the same economically so much. But that’s probably the two biggest things because
Morally,
Biblically, yeah, a lot more Jewish, they’re going to be more hawkish on security, which means they’re going to be more about military force, about strength through power. And then the right wing is going to be a lot more,
You mean left wing?
Left wing is going to be a lot more the traditional liberal, like a western liberal where it’s just very democratic. Very you, you let’s have equal rights for everybody. Not very religious at all.
Not strict.
Not very strict. Yeah. They lean on more of the democratic side of Israel. The right wing’s going to push further and further towards the theocratic Jewish side of Israel,
If you will. And you’re saying Israel has been right leaning for 20 something
Years? Yeah, right. I mean for a long time. I don’t remember the stats off the top of my head, but it’s been a long time. They’ve had a lot. I mean, Benjamin Net has been in power for 17 years. That’s not continuous, but I think he currently has been in for at least 14 maybe. And what
Is the right leaning perspective on the West Bank? Settlers
West Bank. Yeah. Alright. So there’s a variety of opinion in America. We kind of have left and and inside the right wing movement in America, the conservative movement, I would say there’s a higher degree of cohesion of thinking. Now over the last few years, you get into far right or whatever. Now you have ultra far right what comes after this ultra, ultra far right, uber far right. So Israel, it’s a little, it’s sort of similar, but Benjamin Netanyahu is what would be called in Israel right of center. So center is a big thing in parliamentary governments, which is what Israel is. It’s the same as the British system. So you’re not going to be, you’re more of a centrist lac and Bebe’s more centrist. Then you get further and further, I would say far right. And the further far you get, typically the more religious you get and the more zealot type of a group that you get. So the government right now is the majority of the government is actually more center. But there are groups in power in Israel that are far right, and they have a small number of seats in the government, but if they leave the center right, loses its government.
So
It’s not as simple as these two parties that we
Have. They are essentially the people that keep the right wing in power because they can’t be in power without these far right parties. So they wield a lot of influence though they’re a minority in the government
And they are passionate about what you and I are talking about, and I’ve already made their blood pressure go up if any of ’em are watching, because we are actually allowing ourselves to refer to it as the West Bank. For them. It is not the West Bank. It is Judea and Samaria. It is the biblical heartland. They’re giving it the names that are properly given by the Bible, but they will not call it the West Bank because I would say to be benevolent, they’re saying that because it’s true. It’s biblically accurately called the Judean Samaria. That’s the ancient land of it, name of it. And the West Bank obviously refers to an area that was occupied by the Jordanians from 1949, but at the same time, this David we’re practical people. So that’s what the international world knows it by, I don’t have a problem calling it the West Bank because it is a place that has a undetermined status. There hasn’t been an international ruling that it is definitely Palestinian land or definitely Israeli land. So you live in this sort of tension and what is it called? Something suspended in a suspended state like this covenant and conflict,
Something like that. So I want to both sides and find us intention. Would the belief of the far right or the ones who are actually settling in this land, is it similar to calling it Palestine versus calling it Israel? It is the biblical Israel. And do they see the West Bank as this kind of foreign name trying to mask the biblical truth?
Yeah, I think they see that as a means of delegitimizing Israel’s right to the land, Israel’s biblical right to the land. So let’s just start. We’ve already started. Let’s just stop and set the foundation. We’ve talked a lot about seeing this conflict through this window and what is the foundational element of every window that has to be level? It has to be sturdy or the window will be weird. So for us, scripture is the foundational anchor, and I just want to make sure this is understood. We 100% believe in the Jewish people’s right to the land in modern day Israel, 100% that God gave them the deed to the land, he gave it to them. Now, where there has to be more flexibility is on the nature of the boundaries of that land. Because at any given time, I mean Solomon’s Kingdom of Israel was the most far reaching. But when God speaks to Abraham, he basically says from the Mediterranean sea all the way to essentially Mesopotamia the Euphrates river, then Israel has never been that big.
So the biblical land of Israel, according to the Genesis promise, would reach into countries as far as what?
Yeah, it would go through Syria, it would go through Jordan. It would go even into maybe parts of Iraq. It would go up through Lebanon, it would go down into Egypt, current Egypt, definitely into Jordan. So yeah, we’re nowhere near that. And really the kingdoms of Israel were nowhere near that ever. I mean, they moved towards that. So yeah, I just want to make sure that we’re clear that we 100% affirm the Jewish people’s right to the land of Israel to live in safety, to live in charge of their own lives and to live from there to be a blessing to the world. And we believe that Jesus is going to come back and rule and reign from Jerusalem. So it has to be established that the Jewish people biblically do need to be living in the land of Israel because Jesus is the Jewish Messiah and we believe that he is coming again and that he will come again to rule and reign from a Jewish Jerusalem.
Is there belief in maybe the far right or religious Jewish community that before the time of the Messiah or the age to come that Israel will have those borders? Or is that just not talked about? I’m assuming they’d be very politically divisive. So is that something they maybe believe or some believe or
Not? I think in general there’s a lot that you’ll hear in the Jewish world of, well when the Messiah comes. So yeah, there’s an expectation that in the Messianic kingdom, whenever the Messiah comes, he’s going to iron all these things out because one of his main roles is to rule and reign over the nations from Israel. He’s going to be Israel’s Messiah, but he’s going to bring peace to the
Nations
And bring peace to Israel from her enemies and then regather in all the outcasts from Israel.
So that’s why in Acts one, six, you’re seeing this, we’ve talked about this before, when the apostles, Jesus resurrects from the dead, and then his disciples come to him and say, are you now going to restore the kingdom to Israel? They’re basically saying, you’re the Messiah, dude. You just rose from the dead. It’s unequivocal. You are the Messiah. So let’s get on with the next task, which is you kick out the Romans rule and reign from Jerusalem, bring all the outcasts back, which there were tons of scattered people still then. And that’s when he said the father alone sets those dates. So he didn’t say no, he just said, ah. Yeah.
And there’s some other parts in the West Bank right now that Christians would recognize. What are some of those?
So a lot of the biblical sites, I mean a lot of Christian tours don’t go to the West Bank. Bethlehem’s in the West Bank. Hein, the tomb of the patriarchs where Abraham is buried,
Abraham, Isaac and
Jacob. Isaac and Jacob are buried. You’ve been there.
Yep.
That’s in the West Bank. Nalu is Shechem. That’s in the West Bank. So you have the woman at the Well that happened in the West Bank. You have Bethel where our church gets its name from where this happened actually in the West Bank where Jacob had this dream about a gateway between heaven and earth. And yet Jacob’s ladder happens there. You have a lot of conquest. Nazareth. Nazareth is not in the West Bank that’s in the Galilee. So that’s not in the modern West Bank. Then you go down into the Jordan River and you have Gil Gal is in the West Bank. You have Han is in the West Bank. A lot of Jericho’s in the West Bank, oldest city in the world. Obviously
That’s why they would call it the biblical heartland.
That’s right. They say that 80% of the story happens in these places.
It is interesting to think that where 80% of the history of Israel is in a place that’s not Israel or suspended in the air. I get the tension of that. No. So what would you say are maybe the two major perspectives of what to do? You don’t see Israel taking lots of land. You see them typically in a defensive war or a preemptive attack. And I think it’s only been 1967 last time that they expanded their boundaries. But even then it wasn’t like they claimed this is Israel. Now get out. So what are the two schools of thought there? It feels like it’s been suspended since the sixties. So is there any plans moving forward?
Yeah, so there was this, I mentioned Oslo. So Oslo happens in 92 to 94, and there’s these different agreements that basically what Oslo was a set of accords that allowed a framework to develop that would lead towards something. It essentially put incentives on the table for Israel and the Palestinians to take steps towards two states.
Got it. That’s the A, B and C was supposed to be the first step
Towards, right? Because they were saying, let’s start with you being able to administrate these key cities and then we’ll move towards this path towards peace. And so you hear that a lot, the path to peace. The problem here is that I think this is a human issue that whenever vision is cast and people miss an opportunity, you have to then deal with the reality on the ground. You can’t go back and say, okay, we said two years ago we were going to do X, we went two years. We don’t just say in light of everything that just happened, let’s keep doing X. You have to look back and take into account what really happened and develop a plan that is based on some of the outcomes of what actually happened. So you hear in the news, this whole two-state solution, two-state solution. They’ve been trying this since the 1970s and a lot of people have just said that’s never going to work. So what’s the point? Give up on it. So the people on more of the far right in Israel have basically said, this is Israel’s land.
We’re
Not giving it up because look, since the 1990 fours, the 1990s, when you said that you were going to move toward a peace plan, all y’all have done, and I’m saying I’m speaking from a Jewish perspective, all y’all the Palestinians, they probably don’t say y’all, all you guys have done is basically attacked us, tried to murder us, try to kick us out,
Create tunnels,
Yeah, create tunnels, delegitimize our right to exist. And on the other side though, you have to always have two perspectives because the Palestinians are basically saying, yeah, but you’ve never given us a fair shake. And there’s a lot of validity to their claims because the current state of the West Bank is this ambiguous no man’s land
Where essentially the government of Israel doesn’t want to approve or kind of even be seen looking too closely at anything. So that’s why you have these illegal outposts, these illegal settlements, because a lot of these people are good meaning people, and I’m not meaning to disparage any of them, but they’re basically opportunistic and they’re literally living and they’re saying, well, the government, if they’re not looking, doesn’t matter, right? The cat’s away, the mice play, so let’s set up a house. And then by the time they come back and start looking, they’re going to go, oh man, look at all these buildings they built. This is going to be a big mess if we have to evict these people and drag ’em out of their houses and tear their buildings down. Now they’ve done that. On some occasions,
Israel’s
Government, Israel has gone in and forcibly removed Jewish residents that have set up outposts on land illegally settled because it was Palestinian land. But one thing that needs to be made clear is this so complicated this process because it goes all the way back to Ottoman law, Jordanian law, British law, and every single iteration you have this process for how do you know who owns the land? How do you know who bought the land? Did they buy the land under duress? So it’s super complicated. So in the meantime people are like, well, let’s just take advantage of the situation and start taking action. And that’s what we’ve been seeing more and more over I would say the last three years, especially
Since
Benjamin Netanyahu created this new government that has more of a far right influence with two people particularly and Alrich. They’re two very passionate, zealous leaders that I think if they wrote down all their values on a piece of paper, most Christian Zionists, people who love Israel would say, I agree a hundred percent, a hundred percent, a hundred percent, boom. But I think when you back up and you look at the fruit of some of those values, that’s where for me as a kingdom of God, like Jesus inaugurated, kingdom of God, follower Jesus, I have to look at some of that stuff and say at best
Because of the treatment of Palestinians or
Yes, the fruit of it, what comes out of it? There’s a lot of violence against Palestinians. There’s a lot of oppression of Palestinians. So this whole Israel doesn’t occupy the West Bank is one of those things that’s partly true and partly wrong. So do they occupy the West Bank by sending tanks up and down the road every day and forcibly removing Palestinians and forcibly keeping them from freedom of movement? No. But is there a sort of systematic, not even systematic, is there a sort of a structure created that makes life easier for Israelis in the West Bank versus Palestinians? Yes. Again, I’m not saying that’s necessarily wrong. I think Israelis should be able to move freely through there without being killed, but it just creates tension because now you’re getting pulled over because you have a Palestinian license plate when an Israeli isn’t, even though you have just as much right to be on that road. So the more interaction that you create between occupying military forces and subjects, the more opportunity there is for conflict, you’re going to end up with more and more conflict. What does Israel do as conflict increases? Most people respond to that. The hawkish parts of the far right Israel is with more force. Oh, you want to manifest because look, this is the Middle East. I mean this is one thing people need to understand. The Middle East is not a democracy. It is a tribal ethnic war ground where people suppress other people and get what they want through violence.
It always has been. It’s just the way you got to accept that. And most western liberal policy makers don’t get that. So on one hand, the far right Israelis are right, that we have to put these things down with greater force. But you start into this violence cycle then because if you don’t feel like there’s any opportunity for you to advance other than just rising up, which is what Intifada is all about, it’s an uprising, right? The Palestinians and armed resistance and armed struggle, then what are you going to do? I mean, if every time you try to do something, you’re met with this strong force back,
Then
You’re going to push people into a corner. And that’s where we’re in this sort of endless loop right now.
Well, it feels endless for lots of reasons, some of what you mentioned, but then you also have the Palestinian desire to its core is what all of
Israel, you’re going to get a different answer from every Palestinian. I just read an article the other day and there was a guy saying, what do you want? 48 or 67? So they’re asking Palestinians, do you just want the Israelis out of the West Bank that’s 67, or do you want the Israelis out of Israel out of the land? That’s 48. Do you wish they had never had a state 48 or do you wish they had never been on your land 67? And this guy said, you’d be crazy and you’d be a liar if you said 48. And I’m thinking, dude, you, I’m sorry. From when I’ve watched and listened, I’ve watched documentaries hoping the holy land is a good one. You go talk to people on the street, there’s a lot of sentiment over the last 20 to 30 years of we want 48, we want the Jews out of here.
Well, you have the chant, which we’ve talked about from the river to the sea, that’s the whole of
Israel. And Hamas has capitalized on that. Hamas understands there’s this strong desire to, the Palestinians have been oppressed, and Hamas is essentially saying, your only option out is armed resistance is to get every one of ’em out of here. And unfortunately for a young person who has no vision for the future, who’s never been allowed, have vision for the future, that’s all they’re going to do.
So
Then you create these two things that just grow and grow and grow. You have a rising Palestinian opposition and a rising Jewish response,
And
They’re just struggling all the time.
And they’re both
Elevating, well,
We’ve talked before or when they did a poll in the West Bank about what happened in
Ghana, a Palestinian research organization did this poll.
Yeah, asking do you support October 7th? And it was
70%.
Yeah, 70% of the Palestinians in the West Bank were green lighting
The
Murder of innocent Jews. So you have this intention where you’re like, okay, so we’re just going to back off. We’re just going to give the West Bank to the Palestinians. And I understand the sentiment to say that’s not going to solve anything if 70% were approving the mass murder of Israelis for simply being Jewish. I mean, what’s the way out of that? Which brings me to my next question, some would say, and I’ve heard some say that the testing ground for a Palestinian state was Gaza because Israel removed itself completely from Gaza. So what do you feel about that? Do you feel like that’s an accurate withdrawal to see what would happen in a two state solution?
I feel like that’s like saying in some ways there was a bit of a loaded gun left on the table and you’re like, alright, I’m going to leave nobody shoot each other versus saying, we’re going to take the gun off the table. Now, I’m not saying Israel left a loaded gun on the table on purpose, but they didn’t have control over who would fill the vacuum of their presence. So who filled the vacuum was a moss. They within two years essentially murdered and extorted and got themselves voted into power. So it was a doomed scenario from the beginning.
I think one of the problems is that the international community, which so misunderstands this whole situation, upholds a faulty loop, a cycle where if they keep saying two states, two states, then you’re giving hope to people like a Hamas to say, well, the international community wants us to have a state. So what we do is in Israel, we murder and pillage and destroy people. And then internationally we go out and oh, oh look, we’re oppressed. Oh look at this is so terrible. So you’re upholding the support structure for a state over here and you’re giving these people no option. So you’re creating this loop that the international community upholds. I feel like a former president that I will not name here within the last 10 years, let it down to a few different people. Alright? He took a huge step, wow, I’m just giving it away now, am I not? But he rightly understood one thing that the Middle East is about power, and if you’re not strong, you will get your lunch eaten. So when he made strong steps towards moving the embassy to Jerusalem, everybody said, oh, Palestinians are going to, they’re going to blood in the streets. Nothing happened because I think that they realized this dude’s legit, he’s serious. We’re not going to rise up against him because if we buck too hard against him, he’s going to really come after us.
The full force of the US is,
Yeah, he’s not on our side. And so I think this is what is part of the problem is that, and I want to drive the point on this, my point is not to disagree with Israeli settlers because we know a lot of them and we love them.
Yeah, totally.
And we agree on a lot of things. But I will say that my biggest angst is with the international community who in the name of liberal democracy and human rights continues to uphold this disastrous loop cycle where Israelis have to be killed and then have to essentially revenge or defend themselves I should say. And then it harms the Palestinian psyche worse and it ends up with a bunch of casualties that just motivates this aggressive oppressor ideology.
And if we just said, look guys, the Jewish state is not going anywhere, period. Just quit. Quit trying to get rid of the Jewish people. They’re never leaving. And if we came to the table and said, they’re here, you are here. We got to work this thing out. We’re not going to just try to placate both of you. Like you have a little land and you have a little land. I mean it never works, right? We’re parents, we know this. I mean, when your kids are both whining about ice cream, you give them each, they’re not satisfied. It just doesn’t work. So I think this is part of the problem is that everything is so inflamed that it’s going to take some courageous and strong leadership in order to stop this cycle and to be able in Israel, I’m saying to be able to tell the far right in Israel, you guys are doing damage
And
To be able to tell the international community and so are you okay? People who are more left leaning and love peace. And I don’t think we’ve seen such a person in a long time in Israel as a leader because at the end of the day people have to stay in power. And so they have to make decisions about who helps them uphold that power. But okay, let’s back this out to us as believers now, I think as a Christian and as a follower of Jesus, you need to look at this. And we talk about this all the time with that ethical window and how do we understand this? How do we deal with this? Because on one hand we have this tension of Israel has a right to the land and that they actually do more good in the land than bad. And then you have this other tension of, yeah, but God loves people more than he loves land. So what do we do about that? And Jesus very much elevated the value of people above land and above national ideology. So I think this is the tension we have to manage
Is that Jesus was a Zionist, God is a Zionist obviously, because he said, I’m giving you this land and I want you to live here and influence the world. Jesus reiterated much of the prophetic promises of scripture that Israel was supposed to have land and Israel, I mean he never spoke against it. And so what do we do with that? I mean I think this is the path forward in the kingdom is that we come to the table with the solutions that are the hardest. Sometimes the bloodiest, sometimes the most costly because they’re the ones that will yield the most fruit in the long term. And in the meantime, picking aside and joining a side is convenient, but it’s artificial in it’s harmonious nature. It’s not going to lead to anything lasting. So I think as Christian Zionists, as people who love the land of Israel, love the Jewish people, we have to live in this tension where I can go out and sit and have coffee with a settler and illegal settler and listen to them talk about all the reasons that they deserve to be there and that the Palestinians should just become part of the state of Israel. But at the same time, I have to say, yeah, but that’s a little bit dehumanizing because you’re kind of telling one group of people to lower their ethnic aspirations as a tribal people to just morph into
Yours.
And I think short of Jesus being the one who sort of sorts all this out, I don’t really know. I don’t really know how it works.
What would you say about this scripture that we’ve talked about? Jesus says, blessed or the meek for they shall inherit the lands, the earth,
Gi, the word there in Greek, which is almost always referred to as land,
So many times we over read that or the translation insinuates that he’s talking about some kind of metaphorical,
Like a cosmic territorial.
Yeah, the kingdom on earth, we will inherit the earth if we’re meek and meek is a hard word that we don’t typically use. So how does that play into modern day Israel? What does meek mean and what does inherit the land mean
And
What did it mean when Jesus said it and how can we use that today?
Yeah, I think what was so radical about what Jesus did is he didn’t go to the temple and declare himself to be God and then he didn’t go to the Jewish leadership. His first primary audience was, I’m going to go to the rabbinic councils and the leadership and convince them that I’m the Messiah and then get them all on board and then let’s do a top down thing. Once I’m realized at the top to be the main leader, then I’ll influence society. And it’s crazy actually how much we actually think like that still in organizational leadership and even some church structure. But Jesus’s model was to say, I’m going to pick 12 dudes that are kind of messed up and a little bit trigger happy
From the crazy north,
From the crazy north. Yeah, they have no status. I’m going to pour myself into them and then I’m going to unleash through them something unique that marries these things together, these tensions between the kingdom of this earth and the kingdom of heaven. And through that, that’s the kingdom of God on earth is that the promises of heaven and the realities of earth touching each other in two magnets that just want to be doing and just like, right. So I feel like that if Jesus can do it with 12 people, I mean man, just imagine what we could do with something like that, with a group of people. Now the reality is what it took from those 12 was a lot of persecution, a lot of dying to self, a lot of realizing this wasn’t about them and letting go of their nationalistic idea ideologies to realize that I’m going to put this in God’s hands. And I think that’s what makes me a little apprehensive, maybe anxious, maybe scared about some of the far right is in some ways they’re kind of telling God, Hey, you’re taking too long. We’re going to work this out. And I’ve heard somebody say this to me before that Christians believe prophecy. Jews do prophecy.
So Jews read in the Bible and they will return to plant mountains on the hills of Jude and Samaria in Jeremiah. And they look at that and say, oh, we need to do that, that’s command. And we look at that and say, God’s going to make that happen somehow. There’s a marriage between these two. I think that’s where the kingdom of God lives. I think that’s where Jesus was marrying these things together. So on
One, if you only wait for it, then that takes away the partnership that God desires with humans. But if you try to do it just because it’s mentioned in scripture, could you potentially be putting the cart before the horse and overstepping
God, God’s timing. You’re taking control of something illegitimately. You’re essentially saying, God gave this to me as a gift, now it’s mine and I’m going to figure out how to do it. And I think the ministry of Jesus was always to say, give it back to him. I only do what the Father says. I only do what I see my father doing. Even when the disciples in Acts one, six said that right, what did he say? Look, I’m subjected to the father. So yeah, if he wants to hand me a scepter and let’s go maybe, but I don’t set those dates. And I feel like that’s that hard place you got to live in. And it’s tough for me to imagine a scenario where you can do that unless you have what Jesus did later, a couple verses later, right? Filling of the Holy Spirit, the power of heaven available now to be able to do some things and make some concessions and not take things illegitimately from the Lord. Because you got to look at all the miracles in Israel’s history. How many of those things did they do? Very few. They just did what God said. They put himself into place and then they’re like, okay, God, I don’t know what you’re going to do here.
And then he showed up somehow in a way that was unplanned, unpredicted and supernatural. And I think that we’re moving closer towards a Israel just getting pressed into a corner where they’re going to have to just throw their hands up and say, God help us.
We don’t know. So I wanted to have you, as we close speak into, I can understand the tension that many Israelis probably feel, which is the taking of the West Bank. Slowly but surely in settling the land, being in the biblical heartland, Jews living in Judah, it’s like that’s where we get our name. We’re telling you a Jew can’t just plant a vineyard
Or
Build a house in Judah. I understand that logic and how they would very easily draw it back to the founding of the nation of Israel. Then they moved to Israel when it was kind of suspended and planted their flag and were there when maybe people didn’t want them to be there. I don’t know if we would use the word illegal or just frowned upon. So is that kind of the juxtaposition that people are making in their mind? This is exactly how the nation was started, or is there a very divine hand of God that started in 1947 and this is different?
I don’t know. I’m not a PhD in theology. I don’t understand. I tell you what, the older I get, the more I answer questions like that. It’s like it’s complicated. I think if we’re all honest, a lot of times we look backwards and we make things black and white. Totally. I was lost, but now I’m found, okay, my nature in being found was very messy, was very meandering. And then one day the light bulb just kind of came on and I was able to be like, oh, I’m found. And I think even the whole thing, when you look at what God’s done with Israel, there’s so many promises that he’s going to regather them. There’s so many promises he’s going to reestablish this homeland. But then wow, the way he did it is so unusual. He used a bunch of secular people from Europe in the late 18 hundreds that weren’t reading their Bible every day going, we will have a homeland in Israel,
Jewish, but not what we would maybe assume as religious, observant
Jewish. So there’s just some kind of mystery to all of this. And I think that’s why we just have to live with more flexibility and say, I’m feeling towards the things of the Lord, but God has to ultimately be the one that does things. And I don’t know how he does them. Sometimes I feel like it’s a bit of a cop out when people say, we’re just waiting to hear from God. You can do something in the meantime. You’re intelligent. You’ve got all this facts. But the truth is that no, there’s just certain things that God can do dynamically. Pieces of information that can become available, people that can become available, situations that can change. And then it’s just kind of like us in faith. We step into those things and we say, okay, God, now what do we do? And so I think in all of this, it just has to be, wow, Lord, we need your wisdom because only you can marry these two things together. The promise of the land versus the possession of the land, like possessing it rightly, treating foreigners with justice, but having ownership of the land. I don’t know how it all works out. I just know that if we commit ourselves to kingdom values, I think the New Testament presents a lot of wisdom. And I know that the New Testament is a controversial book for Jewish people, but I feel like, Hey, just read the New Testament to try to come up with a peace plan. I don’t know. I’m not, I try to convert you to Jesus. I’m just saying there’s a lot of interesting things there that were put forth by this Jewish guy named Jesus,
And maybe some of them have some legs to him.
I
Don’t know.
What would you say is the difference in the promise and the possession of the land? Is that the terms you use?
Yeah. This is a framework that you can use to look at that God unilaterally, unequivocally promises them the land in Genesis 12, he reiterates it like 16 times in the next 20 some chapters. So that’s unconditional. God said to Abraham, I will this, I will that. So he’s not saying, Abraham, if you do this, I will this. You get to Moses. And God says, okay, Moses, here’s the deal. I gave this land. But if you want to live in it and have peace and security and be fruitful, you got to do all these things. So that’s the possession. If you want to possess the land, then you need to be in obedience to me. But the land’s still yours. It’s like saying you can stay in this house as long as you mow the yard, fix the broken windows, keep the plumbing running. It’s like, yeah, well, if you don’t do any of that, then I’m going to evict you. It’s still your house, but you can’t go back and live in it until you’re ready to live. I want you to. So, and I’m not saying all that to set up and say, well, yeah, the Jewish people can’t have possession of land. They rejected Jesus, which is a common rebuttal. You get to this framework, it’s so much more multidimensional than that.
But essentially, I think that’s part of it, is that God has regathered the Jewish people. And now what he’s wanting to do, it says this in Ezekiel 36, is that first he’ll regather them physically, and then he talks about this, then I will pour clean water on them and make them pure. I will give them a new heart. Jeremiah 31. So I think there’s something coming where he’s getting them there, he’s getting a convocation and he’s saying, now I want to deal with your hearts. I’ve physically moved you here, but now I want to deal with your hearts
And to me to end this whole thing. And what do I really think about? Some of the things I hear from some of our friends in these settler movements or these far right movements or religious nationalist movements is I just concerned for their hearts. They say, we love the Palestinians. And I’m like, yeah, but your actions could tell a different story if you’re being honest. It’s like saying, I love my wife. I never take her out anywhere. She never comes on trips with me. As long as she makes me three square meals a day, we’re good. I love her. Yeah. Well, I don’t know. I feel like maybe you could go deeper.
Yeah.
So
What’s the prayer? People listening maybe left here more confused than they did when they came in. They’re like, I thought I had a grasp on this, but now I’m wondering, what’s the prayer that we can pray for Israel as we’ve been an advocate for, pray for Israel every day, pray for the Jewish people. What are we praying for? Because I think, again, most Christians are saying, oh, we’ll just pray that they find Jesus. Obviously we would value that and say that’s of crucial importance. But there’s a lot going on in Israel where they need wisdom protection. So what would you come out of this saying? Here’s the prayer
Point, right after October 7th, we did a video and somebody asked that, what do you pray right now? And I feel like I had something switch in my head about the Jesus is our Father prayer. If you go back and reread it, what did he say? He says, our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be your name, which basically means make your name great. You go reread Ezekiel 36, and it talks a lot about that where Ezekiel says, you defamed me. And then he says, when I am made holy in your midst Israel, then the nations around me will come to know you as Lord. So you have Jesus praying our Father who’s in heaven. So it’s elevating your perspective, okay, God, you’re up here above all this, you’re thinking with a different perspective than
Us.
How can we make your name great? Well, let your kingdom come where on earth, on the land. Let your kingdom come on this earth as it is in heaven and give us our daily bread. Forgive us the sins that we’ve committed and forgive those who have sinned against us. Man, just pray that.
Pray
That with this like, okay, Lord, I’m going to go into this focusing on this whole land mess. Our Father who art in heaven, hell be your name. Make your name great. Let your kingdom come in Israel. Let your will be done in Israel. Help people forgive one another. I feel like it’s the most profound thing you can do because I don’t know how to sort it all out. Otherwise, I don’t know how this works. I think what we need to do is just move towards things that are kingdom, that bear kingdom fruit and move away from things that don’t, where it’s mutually beneficial for Israelis and Palestinians. And a lot of people say, well, there’s nothing that’s mutually beneficial for both of them. I don’t know. I’m sure there is. That’s where we need God’s perspective. So we need to say, father in heaven, we lift your eyes to you.
I feel like what you do in having this conversation is you help all of us realize more deeply the tension, the conflict, the gray, so that we don’t take our black and white lens and just say, oh, this is easy. Just and millions of lives are affected in that one broad stroke.
Totally.
I think that what I’m hearing you say is that’s what’s not kingdom. It’s not kingdom to just say, oh, let’s just do X. Some people have said in the past, you idiot, just boom. It’s simple. It’s not because humans are involved and lives are at stake. So I appreciate that perspective and God help us welcome or I guess not welcome, goodbye as we.
Goodbye. Sorry for confusing you more than, yeah, probably more confused than when you started, but talk about covenant and conflict. Both of them right there danced around a lot of those. That was like epicenter. That was, yeah.