The Theology of Hell: Jewish Insights, Christian Tradition, and Theological Tensions with Dr. Dan Call

Dr. Dan Call (00:00):

Be because really my biggest emphasis is on spiritual formation. When you look at that from a Jewish point of view, it has to do with behavior. It has to do with making sure that you are living a holy life and you’re adhering to these principles. And in Christian spirituality, it’s often thought that it’s tied to beliefs. Could it be that it’s a merger of the two?

David Blease (00:37):

Hello everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Covenant and Conflict podcast, where we take ancient truths, modern issues, and we see where they connect and we wrestle through the tensions that many times we see in scripture. And with us today, we have a very special guest from the King’s University, Dr. Dan call. Thank you for being with us.

Dr. Dan Call (00:59):

It’s great to be here.

David Blease (01:00):

I’m excited to talk with you. Thanks for

Dr. Dan Call (01:01):

Having me.

David Blease (01:02):

Oh, I’m excited that you’re here.

Dr. Dan Call (01:03):

I love being with you because you make me think and it’s always fun to hang out with you.

David Blease (01:08):

Well, we were talking a little bit before we hit record, and I’m excited to hear your thoughts on some things because I was mentioning to you, we’ve now done the podcast for a few months and we’re getting into the deeper topics, the more niche topics. And when I reached out to you, the thing that I wanted to hear about was this concept of hell. Because it has dominated Christian religion and teaching for years. It’s created fear, it’s created shame, it’s created mystery. It’s created confusion. And so I’m excited to dive into the deeper things and really hear from you a biblical scholar on what the things the Bible says

Dr. Dan Call (01:51):

As we talked earlier, I think that when you begin to talk about theology, the fun part of it is that you often find that what you thought was pretty cut and dry, pretty black and white ends up being a little less than that. Yeah, totally. And the farther you dig and the conversation changes because you begin to realize that some of your preconceived ideas are changed by scripture, which I think is the way that we want it to be. So it’s one of those topics that is certainly in the minds of many. In fact, I grew up in the days when preaching was often tied to hell and trying to get people to think about salvation and using hell

David Blease (02:34):

As

Dr. Dan Call (02:35):

A motivation,

David Blease (02:35):

Firing brimstone.

Dr. Dan Call (02:36):

And I remember even video series that came through during those years that was really tied to the end times and what it would be like. And it scared people to the point where decisions were made. I don’t know how valid they are today, but they were made on the spot because of fear.

David Blease (02:56):

Because fear is a motivator.

Dr. Dan Call (02:58):

Fear is a motivator, there’s no doubt about it. It

David Blease (02:59):

Might not be a motivator with longevity, but definitely we’ll get people moving.

Dr. Dan Call (03:04):

It’s funny that Jesus talked about love a whole lot, and we’ve kind of turned it in some ways. But anyway, that’s another conversation.

David Blease (03:11):

Well, before we get really deep into the topic, I’d love for people to get an understanding of who Dr. Dan call is. Will you give us a little bit of your background, your story, your family, your

Dr. Dan Call (03:21):

Work? Yeah. I’m really what would be called a hybrid. A lot of my adult life has been in local church ministry. I’ve been a pastor for over 25 years, but I’ve also been an educator for about the same number of years, which means I’m old. And so I’ve taught at three different Christian colleges, universities, and then also pastored or been on staff at four churches. And so I’m kind of a hybrid of both. I come out of a home that I started out in the Southern Baptist tradition and heard about Christ, but I never really received him until later. I was sort of enamored with the idea of atheism. I don’t know if I would say it was a full blown atheist, but I thought a lot about that in college. And then when I came out of college, I had an encounter with Christ and it changed my life. So yeah, my upbringing would’ve been Christian, but it didn’t find a home in my heart until later.

David Blease (04:26):

Wow. Well, it’s great that we’re talking to you about this topic because sometimes if you’ve only been in the pastoral side, then you can have a very, I don’t want to, maybe shallow is not the right word, but a shallow understanding of some of the theological terms. And if you’ve only been on the scholastic side in the university, sometimes you get so deep into the weeds that you’re not helping

Dr. Dan Call (04:53):

People. So well said. That’s why I like hanging out with you because the reality is both of those are extremes that we probably need to avoid. There should be tension, but I think that we have to be careful that we don’t find ourselves on the side of having absolutes only. And then on the other side of having it become always discussion that we don’t actually land somewhere at the end of the day. And so I think this kind of conversation is vital to people that really have a heart for wanting to know what does the Lord say? What’s scripture say? Which is a valid question,

David Blease (05:28):

And what do we just not know

Dr. Dan Call (05:30):

And what do we not know? In fact,

David Blease (05:31):

I have an idea about

Dr. Dan Call (05:33):

That in this topic of hell, for instance, if we kind of jump in, that you can’t point to a ton of scriptures that deal with hell in the Old Testament. You do have some often refer to Han or Hanon, and there are those, but the idea that it’s straightforward black and white, it’s clear. It’s not that clear. And so over time, there have been people that have spoken into it that would be extra biblical writers and others from a Jewish background, Jewish perspective that have spoken about it. And I think if I could sort of get cut to the chase, I think that the bottom line is that most Jewish scholars and Jewish followers would say that hell is really more of a place of purification, that it’s a hope that those who need extra time, extra help would find it. And that there would be a place where some of that could get worked out in some ways very similar

Dr. Dan Call (06:38):

Purgatory, to the idea of Roman Catholic purgatory. And there are some similarities, not exact, but there are similarities. So the idea is that they viewed it as metaphor far more than actual. And it was really viewed as a place for the soul to have an opportunity to get right, to be purified of those things that would keep them from a holy God.

David Blease (07:03):

Because fire in the Hebrew scripture is very often linked to purification.

Dr. Dan Call (07:09):

Absolutely.

David Blease (07:09):

So that’s where they’re drawing that from.

Dr. Dan Call (07:11):

Absolutely. And fire is to burn up those impurities. So for the soul, the soul is given an opportunity for that to take place and that they can get that worked out. Now, some have written that they sort of break it down into categories that those who are wicked, who are the lawbreakers would have an opportunity for that those who find themselves righteous are going to be in the presence of God, wherever that might be.

Dr. Dan Call (07:42):

A third one actually that are severely wicked

Dr. Dan Call (07:45):

They feel just get burned up and annihilated. So there is some nuance to it, but a lot of that David comes more from the extra biblical stuff than it does from pure scripture.

David Blease (07:57):

Is that book of Enoch kind of

Dr. Dan Call (07:59):

Some of that. And then also some of the writings from those who would’ve been rabbis that would have written and had the Talmud of the Mishna maybe. Yeah, the Talmud for sure.

Dr. Dan Call (08:11):

Mishna a little bit less, but the Talmud actually deals with this topic. And so those are the extra, when I mean extra biblical, I’m not trying to discount what they’re saying, I’m just saying it’s not straight scripture. And that conversation, because it’s interesting, has caused a lot of speculation.

David Blease (08:30):

Okay. Take me back. First purely Old Testament, purely Hebrew scriptures, gona, what would an ancient Israelite understand gona to be? Is it just a place, is it a real physical place? A valley

Dr. Dan Call (08:48):

That would’ve been a place called gona,

David Blease (08:51):

And correct me if I’m wrong, it’s the Hanham Valley around Israel where it gets its name, which is the valley kind of surrounding

Dr. Dan Call (08:57):

Jerusalem. Jerusalem.

David Blease (08:59):

And so it’s this deep valley.

Dr. Dan Call (09:00):

Yes.

David Blease (09:01):

So are they using this as a metaphor of how deep this valley is? That’s picture that on steroids

Dr. Dan Call (09:09):

That, and I think there were a lot of things that were done in that valley that would’ve been considered pretty horrible,

David Blease (09:16):

Like pagan stuff or

Dr. Dan Call (09:17):

Child sacrifice and some things that would have been viewed as evil. And I certainly think I would’ve said it was evil too.

David Blease (09:26):

Totally.

Dr. Dan Call (09:26):

But because of it being that place, it became sort of the definition for what would’ve been viewed as a hell. And again, because it’s not necessarily a literal place, it’s more of an idea, a concept. And so a little bit less defined, but you asked, gona would’ve been viewed as a place

David Blease (09:53):

And then Sheel,

Dr. Dan Call (09:55):

Yeah, it’s a dark shadowy place, but it’s not really tied necessarily to hell. It is viewed as a little bit mysterious.

David Blease (10:05):

Does Sheel used interchangeably with gona be

Dr. Dan Call (10:10):

Very different terms? Very different terms.

David Blease (10:11):

Okay.

Dr. Dan Call (10:12):

Sheel would be sort of a place of darkness, foreboding, a place of where people would find themselves, but not in the sense of hell being more of an eternal or a final.

David Blease (10:26):

And by hell do you mean Kana?

Dr. Dan Call (10:27):

Yeah.

David Blease (10:27):

Okay. Sona is this final place, maybe this place of evil,

Dr. Dan Call (10:33):

Of yeah, reckoning

David Blease (10:35):

Your deeds are going to be accounted for. Well, Jesus says later the weeping of gnashing of teeth or weeping and gnashing of teeth, where is she more of what we would think of the grave?

Dr. Dan Call (10:47):

I think so. And also the idea of kind of a soul rest as opposed to a final kind of consummation of things. Shields used in, like I said, in ways that aren’t necessarily linked to Khanna.

David Blease (11:04):

So an ancient Israelite may have had this understanding that shields where you go when you die, it’s this buried with my father’s looking towards the resurrection from the dead. And gona is this place of either eternal torment or torment and annihilation or potentially purification. Is that

Dr. Dan Call (11:31):

Right? Yeah. And the purification part, what’s interesting is there’s actually some who have written about this and the suggestion is that would be a place that would not last longer than 12 months. Really it’s specific within a year that should be worked out.

David Blease (11:52):

Do we where they’re drawing this timeline

Dr. Dan Call (11:54):

From, that comes from the Mishna and the Talmud. And in both of those instances, it refers to a period of time. And of course in those conversations people would obviously say, well, how long? And somehow it was determined that it would be a one year sort of holding place to get those things worked out. I think the idea is to see it in the mind of a Jewish person as a place of purification.

David Blease (12:24):

Okay.

Dr. Dan Call (12:25):

That’s really the best way I can articulate it.

David Blease (12:28):

And there’s not a ton of these mentions in the Old Testament.

Dr. Dan Call (12:31):

Not very many at all. You have some in Daniel, you have some mentions in the book of Daniel. You do have some references to it, but not a lot.

David Blease (12:43):

I’m looking at some scriptures here. It seems like Psalms, Isaiah, Ezekiel mentions Isaiah 14, hell from beneath you is excited about you to meet you at your coming. It stirs up the dead for you all the chief ones of the earth, Psalm nine 17, the wicked shall be turned into hell and all the nations that forget God. So these strike me as Gehenna, but then there’s also buried with your father’s, which is this kind of shield concept. So when Jesus comes on the scene, he seems to talk more about the spiritual kingdom. He talks about the kingdom is here, which maybe you can help us parse that because we tend to think the kingdom is coming and heaven is this final destination and hell is this final destination. Jesus feels like blurs that a little bit. No, the kingdom’s here and now, and from my understanding, it seems like we borrow a lot from Greek philosophy, which was like we’re going to escape the flesh and one day be fully spirit. Our flesh is evil, but the spirit is holy. And so you have a lot of Christians that focus on one day we’ll be rid of these evil bodies and will be purely spirit in heaven. And you hear it. People talk about, well in heaven

(14:14):

When I spend eternity in heaven, so what did Jesus actually talk about regarding heaven, hell, the kingdom? And then where did we maybe get off track and make it more than what he said?

Dr. Dan Call (14:27):

Well, there’s a lot of opinion about all of this out there. And so the fun part of this is you read some scholars who are going to, didn’t take the New Testament, sort of overlay it with the old and come out with some things that would look like what I would call a pretty traditional view of heaven and hell. There are those that advocate that there are those places you described that would be eternal destinations, everlasting punishment versus everlasting life as the New Testament talks about it. And those in the minds of those who would follow that tradition, I think it was also built on by a lot of the early church fathers because there’s a lot written about heaven and hell, especially in the early days of the church. And I would say the majority would fall into that camp. You do have some from the very beginning that really viewed those who are finding being sent to hell as a part of their final destination, that they’re not going to be sent to eternal damnation, but it would be annihilation. And there are Christians even in the world today that are going to argue that God who is loving, is not going to send somebody to eternal damnation, that there would be a point where they’d be gone

(15:51):

And they see that as a better outcome than eternal

David Blease (15:55):

Damnation. It’s a hard thing to wrestle with.

Dr. Dan Call (15:56):

It is very hard. And so I will say that there are scholars that would fall on that side of the argument. I think that what Jesus did is that he really brought together an understanding that there is an immediate, and there’s also potential lengthy internality to the decisions that you make. And I think that he in fact spent time near gona where he said the statement, the gates of Hades will not stand against

Dr. Dan Call (16:29):

Church. And that was near Kana the place. And he made that statement, I think to bring Jewish thought along.

David Blease (16:40):

But

Dr. Dan Call (16:40):

This idea, this concept is real,

David Blease (16:44):

Is Hades the Greek version of gona.

Dr. Dan Call (16:47):

I think that would be fair to say that the idea that Jesus, I think was trying to say is that there are both potentially both current present issues and probably eternal issues that are tied to what you do with me. And I think he was trying to bring himself into that for consideration for those who were Jewish, it was to consider him as Messiah, but that he was also talking about consequences. He who has, the son has life, he who does not have the son basically has eternal punishment, or at least at the very least, is not going to be viewed in God’s eyes as holy and righteous, which would’ve been devastating to hear if you’re a Jew because of the way they understood how that would be merited. So I think Jesus is trying to get their attention. I think he had an idea in his mind that he wanted to help them see that there’s something more than just a present reality, but he didn’t push it too far. And we’re having to speculate a bit. I dunno if Rob Bell wrote a book a few years ago, love Wins. It was really about

Dr. Dan Call (18:14):

And his take on things. And then Chan wrote one within a couple of years after that he

David Blease (18:20):

Racing hell

Dr. Dan Call (18:22):

That took a more traditional evangelical position. So those of us who really want the scripture to speak, there’s some gray area. I think it comes down to your own particular point of view on where you land on the argument. And this is where it becomes, comes difficult for some because they want an answer that’s black and white. Just tell me what it, what’s right, which how do and to answer that, you’re going find it difficult to find it purely in scripture. I think there is enough in scripture that talks about hell for people that want to argue traditional point of view to find it.

Dr. Dan Call (19:08):

Believe it is there, but it’s not the only way to view it.

David Blease (19:13):

Yeah,

Dr. Dan Call (19:14):

I don’t know how helpful that is.

David Blease (19:16):

No, you fit in line with our podcasts of the tension and the covenant and the conflict, and these things aren’t always as black and white as we want them to be.

Dr. Dan Call (19:25):

Yeah, we would like them to be very clear.

David Blease (19:27):

Yeah, totally.

Dr. Dan Call (19:27):

And what I tell people when I talk about hermeneutics is that I believe the Bible means exactly what I think it means. So we tend to gather theologians around us that agree with what we think and we discount those who don’t. The reality is there are different points of view. I think you have to find the place where you feel you’re at most at home and comfortable and live with a bit of ambiguity.

David Blease (19:57):

So how much have we put on top of scripture from Dante’s Inferno? I know that’s something that lives kind of in the psyche of many Americans, even if they’ve never read the book, but I think we’ve, like you said, taken from extra biblical or even other stories like an regarding hell.

Dr. Dan Call (20:22):

We do it because we’re fascinated with things like angels and demons and heaven and hell we’re fascinated by it. Dan Brown wrote books and made movies that made millions off of this idea that, so I think in my thought is there’s been a lot of extra stuff added. I mean, if you study ology, scripture has very little to say about hierarchy. We know that there’s one archangel mentioned, but if you look at the theology of the 14th, 15th centuries, they have levels and we have hierarchy of angels and all kinds of things that are interesting and conversations go crazy.

Dr. Dan Call (21:06):

Just not verifiable. If you’re a literalist or at least want to look at the Bible as your final answer, there’s a lot left open. There are those things we simply don’t know. David, we don’t know. Do I believe that there’s an archangel? Yeah, I do because scripture talks about that. But are there three? I’ve heard the argument, but I don’t know that I

David Blease (21:31):

See it. Three meaning Gabriel, Michael and Lucifer. Are those the three that

Dr. Dan Call (21:35):

You’re

David Blease (21:36):

Mentioning?

Dr. Dan Call (21:36):

And we don’t know because they’re not called that in scripture. And so only one is, and so in my mind it’s not necessarily with an evil intent that we try to add to this discussion. It’s a curiosity, it’s a what would it be like if this is true and then we go down that road.

David Blease (22:00):

You have to take little leaps and then you can put some pieces together.

Dr. Dan Call (22:04):

Yeah, yeah. Well said.

David Blease (22:06):

So do you think in your opinion, is hell a place or is hell the absence of the presence of God?

Dr. Dan Call (22:17):

Wow, thanks for asking me that question. Well, let me be clear that I have always, I’ll give you an answer, but I am also open to the fact that I could be wrong.

David Blease (22:30):

Yeah. As we all should be.

Dr. Dan Call (22:33):

I think that it is certainly separation from God. And I believe that God gives us every opportunity to come to him to receive the sacrifice of his son, Yeshua Jesus. I believe that for the Jew, Jesus is the fulfillment of the Messiah. I think for those of us who are not Jewish, who are part of the church and are Christian, I think that Jesus is the sacrifice for us that’s been offered from a loving God. To reject that offer is not so much as God’s condemnation is that our rejection of that offer, it would be like me saying, I have a gift here for you, David. I have a gift and trust me it’s a good one and I give it to you but you don’t receive it. Am I to be blamed for you not receiving the gift? So I would contend no.

Dr. Dan Call (23:29):

I’m not going to blame God, but I believe that it is separation from God. And I do believe there is a place I think scripture has enough that I’m okay with that being said, I’m really more of traditional guy when it comes to heaven and hell. But I also will tell you I can be wrong and it’s not as cut and dry as some of the doctrines that are pretty clearly outlined.

David Blease (24:00):

It reminded me of the scripture where Jesus says, I think it’s John three, he who believes in him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already. So like you said, we’re in this state where we’re already condemned. We don’t have the

Dr. Dan Call (24:16):

Gift.

David Blease (24:16):

He offers the gift.

Dr. Dan Call (24:18):

He offers the gift.

David Blease (24:19):

And the gift is if we wanted to put it simply, we could say eternal life and us rejecting that gift is staying in the state that we’re in.

Dr. Dan Call (24:30):

And I mean, I believe that that’s a choice because I’m kind of a big free will guy. I think God honors big

David Blease (24:39):

Free will guys over here.

Dr. Dan Call (24:41):

I mean, I am a big free will guy. I think that’s one of the things, I mean this is a whole other conversation, but back to looking at the Imago day of Genesis, I think one of the things that God gave us is the freedom of choice

David Blease (24:57):

Or else we would’ve never

Dr. Dan Call (24:58):

Be able to able to love. So I fall on that side of the argument, but the point I’m making is that God is going to honor the fact that he gave you the choice and you literally have a choice. This is not predetermined. I’m not a reform guy. I don’t think it’s predetermined. I think he legitimately gives you a choice, whosoever will that will call in the name of the Lord, be saved. I think that that is a choice that he gives to everyone and that your choice determines an eternal destiny. So I’m a traditionalist, but I also want to be careful because there’s sometimes that can come across as though that’s the only option. And I want to be clear, I don’t think it’s the only way to view it. And I want to honor my Jewish brothers because I think that they also help us to see that, that ultimately God’s a God that cares. He’s a God of

Dr. Dan Call (25:58):

And he wants to extend mercy because sometimes, again, I think we misread the Old Testament is pretty judgmental and God is angry and I don’t think that’s the case at all. I think he’s a merciful God.

David Blease (26:11):

Yeah. Long suffering

Dr. Dan Call (26:12):

And long suffering. I think Jewish people are wanting people to see that in Yahweh. I think they want him to be viewed properly. And so for that, I think they’re leaving open this merciful God who loves mankind is going to do everything he can to provide an opportunity. If that means 12 months of a purgatory type thing, they’re going to leave that open.

David Blease (26:42):

So I want to ask about purgatory, but before I talk about purgatory, the scripture I read where Jesus says, you’re already condemned, but if you accept me, there’s eternal life. But if you reject me, then you remain in the state of being condemned. So to me, that is a pretty clear statement that we have what I think most people would call a sin nature. But I know that that’s also something that’s not very clear in the Old Testament,

Dr. Dan Call (27:12):

Isn’t there’s a lot in the Old Testament that would point people to the idea that there’s a unity, there’s a oneness involved in our humanity.

David Blease (27:25):

Meaning what?

Dr. Dan Call (27:26):

In the sense that they don’t want to divide it up. They don’t want to divide up soul, spirit body. Got it.

Dr. Dan Call (27:34):

There’s a one idea that we are an entity, A one person, the Greeks helped us with the idea of the trippy. So it’s spiritual body. I think scripture is helpful in this regard because of Pauline literature on the flesh, because of his argument that we have a flesh and it’s a sinful

David Blease (28:02):

Nature. War is waging within

Dr. Dan Call (28:03):

Me and that war, that wages, and I fight it every day. So I think it’s real. It’s that idea that we have the spirit that lives within us,

Dr. Dan Call (28:13):

That doesn’t fully eradicate that sin nature. And because of that warfare you just talked about, is there?

David Blease (28:21):

Yeah,

Dr. Dan Call (28:22):

That’s Pauline really more than anything.

David Blease (28:25):

And when you read the Old Testament, the Hebrew scriptures, it seems that God is very much concerned about our actions. There’s clearly things about the heart. God’s always been about the heart when he sees EAB versus David. No, I know he looks like the right person, but I want a man after my own heart. Or even you go through the 10 Commandments and they’re pretty much all very measurable, task oriented. Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not lie. All things we can prove. And then at the end it’s like and don’t covet. How do we measure that? Don’t want something that doesn’t belong to you. How are we ever going to measure that? But I think it was God also showing this future iteration of it’s always about the heart. All of these things are measurable and definable, but I don’t want you to forget. It’s also about the heart. But I could understand reading the Hebrew scriptures and saying, God cares about our actions. We’re judged for our actions and our deeds. And then you read the New Testament and everything seems very spiritual and it really doesn’t matter. I mean, this could be a take. It doesn’t really matter what you do as long as your heart’s in the right place. So you have Christians that will kind of, well, my heart was good

(29:44):

Or there’s grace for that.

Dr. Dan Call (29:46):

It’s used, I think in a way as a bit of an excuse for our human nature that we’re going to overlook it because I was thinking the right things. I know the right things. I have the right theology. I may have fallen here, but you can’t judge me because I know God’s a God of grace and all

Dr. Dan Call (30:06):

To be quite honest, I think that we need a little bit more Jewish thought in this regard because I think that when we begin to separate things out, we run into problems. In fact, James deals with this, doesn’t he? When he talks about it’s not just about what you think, it’s about what you do. That’s the book of James. Well, in the doing part, what the Jewish people are saying is, you can tell me all day long about what you think. I’m going to look at what you do

David Blease (30:37):

If it’s not bearing fruit.

Dr. Dan Call (30:39):

And Jesus talked about how do we judge it, the fruit that we bear. So I think that again, there can be a little bit of an overemphasis, maybe a misapplication of grace that would suggest that you can live however you want and God’s still good.

David Blease (30:58):

You made one decision for

Dr. Dan Call (30:59):

Jesus. He’s Santa Claus. He’s not Jesus, he’s Santa Claus, and you are going to get gifts on Christmas even if you were a bad kid. That to me is the problem. And so God’s helping us to see that there is this idea that God does look at the heart, but he’s also looking at our actions being in alignment, that our beliefs are in alignment with our actions. Somebody once told me that this little story that if you really want to know what someone believes, follow them around for three days and see how they live. Because I can tell you based on how you live,

Dr. Dan Call (31:41):

You value and believe. So if you tell me that you love God with your finances, then let me see your bank statement. If you tell me that you believe in obeying the laws is a good thing, then let’s look at your arrest record. You know what I’m saying? I’m not talking about being judgmental. I’m saying let the fruit speak for it. So when you read Jewish spirituality, because really my biggest emphasis on spiritual formation, when you look at that from a Jewish point of view, it has to do with behavior. It has to do with making sure that you are living a holy life and you’re adhering to these principles. And in Christian spirituality, it’s often thought that it’s tied to beliefs. Could it be that it’s a merger of the two?

David Blease (32:39):

Could

Dr. Dan Call (32:39):

It be that it’s both of those

David Blease (32:40):

Things, that those things don’t really have a separation. They

Dr. Dan Call (32:43):

Don’t really have intrinsically

David Blease (32:44):

Connected,

Dr. Dan Call (32:46):

That they actually are tied pretty closely together. Now, you have to be careful with this because you can become pharisaical in sense of almost be bordering on legalism that we’re running around. And I’m not talking about that. I’m just saying let’s not fool ourselves.

David Blease (33:01):

Well, and Jesus addresses that by saying, many will say to me, Lord, Lord, do not prophesy, cast out demons in your name. And he’s like, I never knew you,

Dr. Dan Call (33:07):

Never knew you, which is so you can do the action scariest scriptures in the world to me, super scary. And if it doesn’t scare you, you’re not reading the same scripture I am. But it’s one of those things where I think there’s a direct correlation to right belief and right behavior. And again, going back to Paul when he talks about, do we say that grace is, I’m paraphrasing, empowering us just to do what we want to do and live in sin, he says, heaven forbid.

David Blease (33:33):

Yeah, Roman,

Dr. Dan Call (33:34):

This isn’t a call to live an unholy life because you have put your faith in Thea. This isn’t that your life should be changed because of your faith in Christ. Your life should be lived in a fashion where people are going. I see something different in David and in Dan and that growth into that becoming and more like Christ

Dr. Dan Call (34:01):

Really the goal of spiritual formation. God has a goal for you and me, and that is that we’re going to look a lot more like Jesus. So he’s working on our attitudes. He’s working on our actions. He’s working on our mouth, what we say, because there’s a lot at stake here. We’re his ambassadors and he wants ambassadors that represent him well.

David Blease (34:19):

Yeah, it’s so good. Well, we touched on hell. And there’s essentially three different options, whether you believe it’s the purification where I think the wrestle with that would be like, let’s take it to the extreme. So Hitler just needs to be purified. That’s always

Dr. Dan Call (34:39):

Going to be the, well, even to the extreme of questions, could Lucifer find

David Blease (34:45):

Salvation? I guess that’s even the greater, which would be

Dr. Dan Call (34:47):

The greater spectrum. But you’re right, Hitler, Mussolini, put whoever you want in

David Blease (34:52):

There. Yeah, yeah. Put Satan himself there. Yeah. So that’s probably the tension there. Then you go to Annihilation, which I think the tension that it helps relieve is how could a loving God send people to eternal punishment for the rest of eternity? They’re alive and they’re aware and they’re punished for something they did on a small span of life,

Dr. Dan Call (35:23):

However long that would be, 70, 80 years or shorter for the

David Blease (35:27):

Rest of eternity. But the other side of the tension is then does that, I think the argument that I’ve heard is then why would somebody really accept the gospel if at the end of the day, I’m not going to accept Jesus? I believe when we die, we just die. Just the lights turn out and we’re just cease to exist. And we’re like, no, you’re going to go into punishment. And then that’s going to happen. And they’re like, cool. Well, then that’ll happen. And so I think people think it waters down the gospel and of severity. I think

Dr. Dan Call (36:03):

That’s true. And I think it’s also true to say that Jesus does talk about eternal life a lot, and that has to be viewed as something that is real. However, that’s lived out, however we discover

David Blease (36:18):

It. So the emphasis being the eternal life,

Dr. Dan Call (36:19):

The eternal life part, which then begs the question, what then for those who do not receive him,

David Blease (36:29):

Whether it’s eternal punishment or annihilation, either way, it’s not eternal

Dr. Dan Call (36:33):

Life. It’s not eternal life. And by the way, you’ve made this point really well, that eternal life doesn’t start at a later point. Jesus is promising that gift. Now, eternal life begins now. This isn’t just a destination for the far future. So if that is true, then we have to ask the question then what is the opposite? Or what’s the flip side of that? Philosophically, if you’re not living an eternal life, what does that then mean? And what causes one to miss eternal life? Those become the questions that I think are important.

David Blease (37:12):

Yeah, no, that’s so important. As we wrap up, I’m getting the sign we have to wrap up soon. I’d love for you to just end talking about the other end of the spectrum as far as heaven, because I think just like we have misconceptions or confusions about hell, we have similar misconceptions about heaven. And the one that I’ve always felt can a Christian out is rewards. It feels almost like a Islamic idea of like, oh, we’re going to have rewards or maybe a Mormon idea of like, oh, we’re going to have, we’re going to be rulers

Dr. Dan Call (37:46):

Over planets,

David Blease (37:48):

Over planets, but the Bible does have something to say about rewards. So where are we supposed to hold that in this tension?

Dr. Dan Call (37:57):

So great.

David Blease (37:57):

Are there different levels of heaven? Can you be a door keeper in heaven or have a mansion?

Dr. Dan Call (38:02):

Yeah.

David Blease (38:02):

So

Dr. Dan Call (38:03):

Great. I love hanging around you. I think for me, the way I land on it is that whatever accolades, whatever achievements, whatever honors I will receive, for me, I know that Christ is my source, and I know that every good and perfect gift is from him, every gifting that it’s really ultimately it’s going to be tied back to him. And I think that the picture that I have that no matter what it is that I receive, the picture of me giving it back to him is the part that I get teary about. Because I think the picture of receiving something to then be given back is the picture. So that even in whatever we receive, which could be honor, it could be reward in whatever form or fashion that takes. My picture is that for those who are followers of Yeshua, we know that it ultimately is something that was provided by him, his death certainly. But then everything that’s good and right, I’ve received gifts that I cannot take credit for in that sense.

Dr. Dan Call (39:21):

Participated in it, I accepted it, but I know ultimately the source for that, and I’m going to give that back. I want to be able to, the picture I have, David, is we’re going to be on our knees, on our faces, sliding back, whatever those acknowledgements are to the one that deserves it all. And I like that picture because I think it’s a picture of how a servant would give back to his master. And that’s to me a beautiful picture of what we’re talking about. Yeah.

David Blease (39:54):

So beautiful. Well, it comes back to the parable of the talents almost

Dr. Dan Call (39:56):

Right?

David Blease (39:57):

And I think it rightfully puts the perspective in place that I don’t want to do righteous deeds so that I get more in heaven. I want do righteous deeds. I want to return more to Jesus, who was the source of

Dr. Dan Call (40:13):

That. I love that. In fact, the whole idea of handling our money, for instance, it finally hit in my head the idea of being stewards of the money that I have, recognizing that all of that really is from God, and it’s his. He just asked for certain parts back.

Dr. Dan Call (40:31):

Generous, isn’t he? So the idea here is the same with gifts. I mean, I think I’ve been given gifts to be used to advance his kingdom, to lift him up. And as if that provides some acknowledgement, then my mind is let’s give it back to the one who deserves it. And ultimately he’s the only one that really deserves it.

David Blease (40:50):

Yeah. Yeah. That’s so good. It reminds me of the scripture where he’s like, if you do it in public, you had your reward.

Dr. Dan Call (40:57):

It’s all done.

David Blease (40:58):

Your reward was people clapped. People were excited about

Dr. Dan Call (41:00):

It. You fast and acknowledged it here, good for you. That’s all you got.

David Blease (41:03):

But if you did it in secret, then I’ll reward it. And again, whether that means an internal reward, we don’t know, or whether that means a blessing here on Earth, it doesn’t really matter.

Dr. Dan Call (41:14):

And by the way, we are blessed. We, I mean, come on, if you think about it,

Dr. Dan Call (41:18):

You and I have been blessed beyond words so that we can recognize right now we don’t, again, back to the idea of everlasting. And the eternal life begins now in the sense of us recognizing that and being able to be gracious and grateful for everything that God’s given the fact we’re here in these comfy chairs. Man, I’m telling you, this is a gift.

David Blease (41:44):

Well, and to make it full circle, that’s how I kind of view hell is the scripture. I think it’s Ecclesiastes where it says it reigns on the just and the unjust. So for a season in time, even if you live the most wicked life, you still experience the presence of God in his created order and the things that he created that were good, they’re still good on this earth. They are. Sometimes we think it’s just, oh, it’s full of sin. It’s like, no, they’re still good.

Dr. Dan Call (42:10):

They’re still good.

David Blease (42:11):

And even the wicked experience the goodness of God in that the rain still comes down, but hell is the complete absence

Dr. Dan Call (42:21):

Of anything, all of

David Blease (42:22):

God,

Dr. Dan Call (42:23):

Which

David Blease (42:23):

Is anything good. So it’s almost like a vacuum

Dr. Dan Call (42:27):

Of

David Blease (42:28):

Existence. And whether that means annihilation or eternally, I don’t know. But it’s a complete stripping away of anything that was God, which is anything that is good

Dr. Dan Call (42:38):

And anything that is good, beautiful, all those attributes. That’s how I want talk about how good God is instead of articulating, which I think is often the case, that we go straight to the negative. That is that reality. Yes. But you want to live a life that’s going to be that abundant life. He talks about, because you and I both know that there are things that we don’t understand, but there are moments of joy,

Dr. Dan Call (43:11):

Are moments of beauty. CS Lewis, the moral law that he talks about mere Christianity. We recognize that there’s something inherent in our

Dr. Dan Call (43:22):

Where we recognize goodness and beauty, and I think that’s a life that’s worth living. I don’t want to live a life without those options. That’s hell. Yeah.

David Blease (43:35):

That’s good. Well, thank you for having this conversation. Hopefully we’ll have more in these comfy chairs in the

Dr. Dan Call (43:43):

Future. I love these. Cheers. Yeah.

David Blease (43:44):

Well, let’s pray.

(43:45):

God, thank you that you are the source, and through you all good things that we’ve experienced on this earth because of you, we’ve experienced them. And Lord, I pray that you would help us wrestle through some of these concepts, because we don’t want to be ignorant of them. We don’t want to just avoid them just because they might be hard or they might be confusing. But Lord, we also, I’m reminded that when you read James, you read Paul, you read John, when we talk about our eternal destination, many times they’re warning us not to be flippant. Not to just think, oh, I’m a son of Abraham, so I’m in. Or, oh, I accepted Jesus, so I’m in. Or I went to the altar to church. So because there’s so many scriptures that we talked about, many will say to me, Lord, Lord, and you will respond, but I never knew you. And so Lord, we want to truly know you. And we want our assurance not to be in just one action we did, or one belief that we say we have, but truly in your presence, in relationship with you. And so, Lord, I pray you just reveal yourself to all people, Lord, in that anyone listening to this, it would turn them to you because you are the source of life in goodness, in name, Jesus name. Amen. Amen. We’ll see you next time.