Arab Christian From Bethlehem: How Believers Should View Israel

Steven (00:00:00):
Our pro-ISIS, Israel friends, you could go in all day and give reasons. Well, yeah, but Hamas hides behind blah, blah, blah. Yes, but you need to acknowledge there’s suffering. There’s hurting. Innocent civilians are dying. They’re killing. Can Israel do better? A hundred percent. I’ve said it to, I’m not going to mention how many the top leaders in the Israeli government, I said, Israel can and needs to do better. We cannot belittle Israel’s moral values and standards down to a level of Well, yeah, but they’re finding Hamas. No, no, no. I call Israel to a higher standard. I call Israel to a higher moral standard, and those are bringing Israel down to level of Hamas. We’re doing the wrong approach.

David (00:00:49):
Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of the Covenant and Conflict podcast. We have another amazing episode, and this is a special episode because it’s a first for us at the Covenant and Conflict podcast, and that is we have an amazing guest from Bethlehem who is an Arab believer in Jesus. We have with us. Steven Khoury, thank you for being

Steven (00:01:10):
Here. Thank you, brother. It’s good to be with you. I’m only in town for a few hours, but I love that we are together hanging out.

David (00:01:17):
We call that a buzzer beater. We’re getting this at the end of the buzzer.

Steven (00:01:20):
That’s right.

David (00:01:20):
So we’re so thankful that you’re here. We just had breakfast and it was so good to talk to you, to hear your heart. So I’d love for you to share with our audience just a little bit about yourself, where you were born, where you were raised, your faith journey, and then I’d just love to hear your perspective as an Arab believer in the land of Israel, in the Palestinian territory, in the West Bank in Bethlehem. There’s so much to talk about, but first to start with kind of who you are, your family, where you were born, that stuff.

Steven (00:01:48):
Yeah, so my name is Steven Khoury. I was born in Jerusalem. I grew up in the birth city of C Christ in Bethlehem, and I always like to emphasize not Bethlem, Pennsylvania, Bethlehem, the one and only Bethlehem on this globe, on this earth.

David (00:02:03):
The one Pennsylvania is named

Steven (00:02:04):
After. Yeah, exactly. Anyway, I’m going to start using that line. I grew up there all my life amongst the Arab communities. I’m a second generation born again, Bible believing, spirit filled believer. My first generation is my father.

Steven (00:02:21):
A first generation born again, Bible believing, spirit filled believer in Arab from Jerusalem.

(00:02:28):
He came to Christ, an evangelist, actually a pro wrestler from West Virginia, sent by a small country church. Baptist church in Texas. He was sent out and turned evangelist, bumped into my father, bumped into my father, holy Spirit bumped, I call it, and bumped into him, shared the gospel, led him to Christ. My father a few years later was at the Garden tune, praying. While there, I met 40 guys who were professors from a Baptist Bible college in Springfield, Missouri, and they asked him, what you doing there? My father said, well, I’m a local born again believer. They started weeping, crying. They couldn’t believe there’s a local jerusalemite there who’s a born again believer, so they’re drying their tears. These 40 guys, they’re drying their tears and they say, how can we pray for you? He said, well, I’m just asking God to give me an opportunity to get a Bible degree. There’s no Bible colleges at that time. There’s no Bible education at that time. I’m talking about 40 now, 48, 49 years ago, and they started weeping and crying again. So I tell people, there’s no mistake, there’s no coincidence. Everything’s preordained, God timing. They started weeping and they tell ’em the reason we’re weeping is because we’re not supposed to be here, but everything was working against us. God wanted us to be at this moment.

(00:03:44):
My father said, why? They said, well, we’re all professors and with us as the president of our college, and they told him, pack your bags, you go to America. He came, graduated, came back to Bethlehem, started the Bethlehem Ministry, always known as the First Baptist Church, Bethlehem. Now people just know us as the Bethlehem Ministry. Out of that, we’ve grown today to be 11 ministries, smaller ministry, 11 ministries in six different locations. So I grew up in there all my life, seeing ups and downs, war and turmoil, brokenness, hurting, animosity, killing, hatred, revenge. But the only antidote, the only answer to all this was the gospel and then the truth about who Jesus Christ is. That sums up my story.

David (00:04:28):
Wow. When you were growing up, you obviously grew up with a first generation believing father. When did it become real for you, this faith, because it’s kind of all of our story. If you grew up in a Christian household, at some point it becomes real for you, when was that moment where following Jesus became real?

Steven (00:04:47):
That’s a good question, David. For me, I would say around 16 years of age, I was saved. The typical American or the Western terminology is when did you pray the prayer? Even though in Israel it’s a lot different. The fast food approach doesn’t work

(00:05:05):
For me. I was May 10th, 1990. It was cleaning Sunday seal classroom, cleaning up the classroom, getting ready for that weekend. I was maybe 10 and a half years of age. There was a crumbled piece of people on the ground, picked it up. I blew the dust off this paper and it was drawn three 16. Even though I knew that verse, I grew up hearing it. There’s just something about the dust on that paper resembling the dust of my life. As a 10-year-old boy, I needed to make a choice. I’m either for Christ or not for Christ, even though there was nothing much you could get in trouble with in Beth Line, drugs, alcohol, that stuff wasn’t really a thing there, but it is just at an early age, I needed to be fully sold out. That’s when at age 10, I became fully sold out to Christ. Age 16, my father asked me to disciple some, a young Muslim, and after spending a couple of weeks discipling this young man, he disappeared, and what happened was his mother found his Arabic Bible and she gave it to his uncles, and for three days they attacked him. They beat him in his bedroom. Their one request was deny his love for Jesus. Not one single time would he deny his love for Christ, not once,

(00:06:20):
And the irony is he didn’t go through the discipleship one-on-one. He didn’t go through understanding Christianity. He’s just,

David (00:06:28):
Yeah, he didn’t have apologetics in his back

Steven (00:06:30):
Pocket. He didn’t. He couldn’t rationally, intellectually, philosophically, theologically, rationalize, explain or to defend the scriptures or the Bible or Jesus. But he knew one thing that Jesus changed his heart. Jesus gave him value, and Jesus Christ saw him for who he could be. And in that mere fact alone, it was enough for him to be physically attacked for something he could not fully rationally, intellectually explained, but he was willing to venture out with Jesus

David (00:06:55):
And not deny him

Steven (00:06:55):
And not deny him. And I was walking down a church street towards a church in Bethlehem, and I never forget this. I’m walking somebody in Arabic comes up to me, says, are you Steven? I said, yes I am. They were identifying me

(00:07:08):
In Arabic. As I speak Arabic, I read Arabic, I read Hebrew. This was in Arabic, and I said, yes. I felt something burning in the back of my head. I went like this, thinking it’s a bar or a fly, and looked at the palm of my hands there and they’re turned around about five or six guys with metal chains and thick wooden sticks in their hands. They put me to the ground, began to beat me over and over and again, called me names like infidel and prose and Jesus lover, Jew lover. In the middle of this beating, I remember I shot it. I said, Lord, just get me through this. That’s why I can say, Lord, get me through this. I love you. I’ll do more for you, Lord. Get me through this. That’s all I can say. With 30 40 seconds of beating, it was however long. It was a painful one, but I tell people, that’s when I understood what it means to have a covenant God,

(00:07:52):
To have a God who says what he means. It means what he says when he says, I’ll never leave, allow forsake you. I understood what Christ says is I’ll be your God. I understood that what a promises is coming to me, heavy, laid in heavy burden, I’ll give you rest. I understood that he was there, and that’s what covenant theology, I would say the first time for me became a reality. Our god’s a covenant theology. Sorry. He’s a covenant God. He’s a God of covenants. That beating was intended to shut me down, but what I did, David now just closed on this story, not only to make God more real in my life, it elevated my faith to a higher level. It was my first time as a young man ever getting physically beat. I’ve seen my father get attacked. I’ve seen church members get attacked, especially during the eighties and nineties. Thankfully, it’s a lot different now, a lot better than what it used to be from the physical aspect of things, but it set my bar higher and I wouldn’t be the man I am today. And I’ve had the privilege to share my story and a lot of global networks and TV networks and even spoke of the United Nations twice about the persecuted church around the world and so forth, defense with the persecuted and so many other things.

(00:09:01):
But I wouldn’t be the man I’m today if it wasn’t for that beating. It prepared me to go into hostile areas. It prepared me to go into areas I never would’ve. I never would’ve. The mere mentioning of them scares me, but that beating allowed me to have the higher standard of Christ, gave everything to us

David (00:09:24):
Essentially to realize if God is formed me, who could be against me,

Steven (00:09:27):
Who be against. That’s right. And what can separate us? So what shall suppress from the love of God, trials, tribulations, famine, hunger, on, on and on. Nothing can separate us from the love of God. And that became personal story for me, and I encouraged every person to see this, that I’ve talked about this briefly over breakfast, is that the struggles and challenges that nation of Israel or the Israelites have gone to in the biblical era became God’s showcase of his glory in every one of their stories. Goliath was David’s showcase. He was David’s biggest blessing, and that’s what I say. That experience was my biggest blessing.

David (00:10:04):
Wow. Praise the Lord. As you’re talking about Bethlehem and kind where that sits in Israel, I’d love for you to kind of ground us in our listeners, because I know I’ve talked to many Christians, and if you say, I went to Israel, I went to Bethlehem, they’re probably like, oh, a great Jewish city where Jesus was born, or they might think a great Christian city where Jesus was born. So will you kind of walk us through the landscape of maybe the eighties and nineties when you were growing up? What did Bethlehem look like? What does it look like now? What is the percentage of Jews, Christian Arabs, Muslim versus Christian versus Jewish, secular religious kind of ground us in what has been historically and what is current day Bethlehem?

Steven (00:10:46):
That’s a good question, David. So to those who have gone to Israel in the eighties and nineties and today, it is a lot of difference. So first of all, you have a wall separating bethlem in Jerusalem. It all began, this

David (00:10:58):
Is a new wall.

Steven (00:10:59):
A wall was put up around, well, it’s been built and expanded over the last 20 years since specifically in 2001 or 2000 thousand one, the marking of the second Intifada, Intifada means uprising. The first Intifada was in the late eighties, some say 87, 88. That’s the first Ada, second Ada, which means in Arabic means uprising, uprising of the Arab.

David (00:11:22):
It’s almost like revolt in our world.

Steven (00:11:24):
Revolt, exactly. Revolt against the occupying force. That’s what they call it, the occupiers, Israel and so forth. That’s not my term. That’s what they call

Speaker 5 (00:11:33):
It.

Steven (00:11:35):
So at one point, Bethlehem was predominantly 80 plus percent Christian. Now again, that Christian terminology is very loosely used, 20% Muslim,

David (00:11:46):
But it would’ve been Arab Christians for the most part. Arab Christians.

Steven (00:11:49):
Yeah, there’s no Jews or Israelis inside Bethlehem. And we’re going to talk about the political slash nationalistic divide here in a second. So the 80% Christian in Bethlehem, 80 plus, 20% Muslim in about 20 people ask me, when did that change? I tell literally it takes about 20 to 22 years usually to see a generation flip or to see a generational change. In much of my studies, I see the average usually takes about 20 to 22 years to see a revolution or a change or

Speaker 5 (00:12:26):
A shift. A quick flip, a

Steven (00:12:27):
Flip. So literally went 180 degrees. Today, the average around 80 to 85% Muslim and 15% plus or minus numbers fluctuate. So you can safely say it, almost spend them completely switched. 180 degrees between now 80 plus percent Muslims 20 around the average 20% are Christian. Again, loosely term, born again, Bible believing evangelical Christians. I’m not. I’m talking about Bible believing evangelical Christians. I mean, on the West Bank, we’re very, very, very, very, very small numbers. Some numbers today are between 12,000 to 20,000. Born again evangelical Christians in the whole country of Israel amongst Arabs and Jews. And then to do the political aspect, 19 95, 96, that’s when Israel, the Oslo agreement they gave over the West Bank, some call it Judean Samir, they’re both the same. Jude Samir is more of a biblical term. West Bank is more a political term. They gave up Bethlehem Ramallah, he much of the area, it’s a hotspot of things because you can’t really separate it, but they did by towns called settlements where Jewish people live in settlements and then Arab villages and towns like Bethlehem, he beja shepherds fields are within that realm. Chad had one more thing. I know all this stuff. It’s just we’re trying to get your viewers to understand the mainstream of the country. So you have Jerusalem, which is Israel proper under the Israeli, the state of Israel.

(00:13:56):
So the world asked for a Palestinian movement. The Palestinian people fought for it. AFA led it under the Palestinian Liberation Organization, PLO. Now it’s called the PA Palestinian Authority. So they rule and oversee, they govern rule, oversee the Judean, Samaria, biblically or the West Bank, which includes north to south many villages and towns scattered throughout and led under the Palestinian authority, which have come a long way. The Palestinian authority has come a long way since 19 95, 96. They’ve come a long way. We have to give them that much of a credit, whether we like it or not. The Palestinian authority, they exist. They’re there. Israel allowed ’em to be there. Israel gave up part of the land. There’s a lot of reasons why Israel did that biblically. I think it caused a lot of problems, but they’re there. We either ignore the Pasadena authority, we ignore them, we ignore the people or we acknowledge their existence and push them towards a righteousness. People, push them towards God’s righteousness, push them towards becoming a people group that promotes peace, love and forgiveness and coexistence and not hatred, animosity, terror and so forth. And that’s what we’re trying to do, be the light to the nations.

David (00:15:08):
Yeah, that’s amazing. Yeah. We’ve talked before a little bit about the Palestinian authority and just the way that the West Bank is kind of run with area A, B, and C and different levels of authority. I don’t know if there’s a harder question for an American to be asked than weigh in on the Israel Palestinian conflict. Most Christians would rather just die on the spot than have to answer that, and that’s where you literally live and kind of figuratively live and work in your ministry. So I’d love to just ask. We’ve had Messianic Jews in this podcast. We’ve had Orthodox Jews, we had a Karaite Jew, we had have pastors and evangelicals scholars. But you’re the first Arab believer to be on the podcast and all the other guests. It’s very comfortable for them to talk about God’s heart for Israel, God’s heart for the Jewish people, maybe even a little bit God’s heart for the Arab people, but that’s not typically the focus. So I’d love for you to weigh in on this idea of God’s heart for Israel, but God’s heart for the Arabs, Isaac and Ishmael and this feud. So I’d love for you to just begin. I know that’s a huge question, but where do you start when you think about your ministry and what’s in your heart, what God’s put in your

Steven (00:16:26):
Heart? That’s a quick question, David. We’re sitting right now in Dallas and probably today one of my best friends, one of my best brothers in a partnering ministry is time to revive with Carl Martin. And I remember one of the first conversation we had on this issue was because his heart is for Israel, for Jerusalem, for the Arabs, for the Jews. And our discussion was he said, help me understand the dynamics, the dilemma of Israel in the nations Palestinians, in the nations, this whole, the question you just unpacked. And I remember he asked this to me in a way that I’ve never been asked before. Basically he said, give me the political answer and give me the kingdom answer. And that was such a great, awesome way to lay it out in front of me.

David (00:17:16):
Give

Steven (00:17:16):
Me the kingdom answer and give me the political answer.

David (00:17:19):
Yeah, give me the covenant and give me the conflict.

Steven (00:17:21):
Exactly. Yeah. And I love to go back to that. It allows me to step into that mindset of how I was able to answer him,

Speaker 5 (00:17:30):
Because

Steven (00:17:30):
We were just having a coffee talk in Jerusalem on the situation of a guy just like you who wants to learn deeper, but also wants to his listeners and his people to know more.

Speaker 5 (00:17:43):
So

Steven (00:17:43):
Here’s how I answered that, and here’s how I still answer it. Until today from my conversation with Carl Martin at that time, the first way to say is Israel is not perfect anybody, whether it be Messianic, Orthodox, Zionist, whatever spectrum they’re on with Israel, anybody that calls Israel perfect is an idiot. I say with all due respect, with all love, and I am probably one of the most apt to say that I live there till today, a lot of people, they talk about Israel, but they live in the mountains in Colorado, another against mountains. I love the commands in Colorado. They live on a beach house somewhere in Florida.

David (00:18:21):
It’s easy to say, oh, the holy land. But when you live there, you’re like,

Steven (00:18:24):
It’s a lot of different, I want to come and move. I had somebody say, I want to sell everything. I want to come move to Israel. I’ll say, just come live for a month, come live for a month, get up in the morning, have a functioning day, and then we’ll talk after a month or two when the reality sinks in. So I’m going to give you the views behind the scenes of realistic views of what it’s all about. So Israel is not perfect in do we have the right to judge all of Israel? If we say yes to that, then we have to apply that to the Palestinians. We have to apply that to the Qari people, the UAE people, to the Jordanian people, meaning that for the acts of the few, if we have the right to judge all of Israel, then we have to apply that to every race, every people group, let’s say within a 600 mile radius of Israel

Speaker 5 (00:19:16):
To

Steven (00:19:16):
Be fair. Then the next posing question is if we say no in Israel’s, if we don’t have the right to judge all of Israel to be fair, which we don’t, that’s the answer by the way. If we don’t, which we don’t, then we ask is what is Israel position and what’s Israel position established in the kingdom and what’s Israel position in the political realm? So the first way to answer that is in the political realm. Israel’s a nation, I already called this. It is a nation that has a lot of issues, a lot of problems, a lot of things need to change. There is hatred, there is animosity, there is is division, there is racism. It exists. If I were to draw anything other than that, I would be a deceitful, dishonest person. It’s a

David (00:20:06):
Nation still full of people,

Steven (00:20:08):
Sinful people. It’s human, evil, sinful people, carnal people, free will people that fall.

David (00:20:13):
So when you say, we don’t, if we’re going to judge Israel, we can’t judge all of Israel based on the imperfection of Israel. When you say judge, because I know a lot of people are hesitant to even be critical of

Steven (00:20:27):
Israel. Yes. And that’s dangerous because people have fallen in love with Israel more than the God of Israel, and that’s a sin. Okay. My zionistic friends and I speak, in fact, 80% of my conferences I speak at are to Zionist audiences. And I literally am probably one of the only few or some, the Arab speaking at their conferences. They trust my heart. They know where I stand in Israel. I am a covenant Bible believing Christian means I believe in God’s covenant in Genesis 12, 15, 17. And there’s some of the same conversations that I went in with Kyle with timem to revive at that time. It’s understanding God’s heart for Israel, but also there is a practical thing. We have to call them to a higher standard. We have to call them back to the first love, to their first love. And that’s Yeshua.

David (00:21:12):
We get that. So when you say, don’t judge Israel, you meaning not condemning, not

Steven (00:21:16):
Condemning the

David (00:21:16):
Entire nation of Israel,

Steven (00:21:17):
Exactly. Of imp profession for the acts of a few. If I’m going to judge all of Israel for the acts of a few, then we have to apply that same standard moral standard to every nation around us.

Speaker 5 (00:21:26):
Totally. Yeah.

Steven (00:21:28):
And that’s what many do. The acts of a few, all of Israel is bad kill over Israel. It’s okay to do October 7th, it’s okay to kill the Jewish people. It’s okay for the acts of a few and it’s undeserving. But the acts, that’s the premise, the draw. So the Palestinian situation with it, start out with the political side, Israel surrounded by, I’m going close a circle and say 300 mile radius of nations. Every one of those nations wants to destroy it. And you asked some of these people from some of these nations that I’ve traveled to, some of ’em, not all of ’em traveled to multiple Arab countries. I’ve met Arabs from almost every Militian country who I’ve had the privilege to preach or teach or teach at conferences in Europe where they’re being Arab leaders and I get to teach and speak to them. You ask, why do they hate Israel? Most of ’em don’t know why. Of course, that stems from the hatred that SDA built within their early foundations of some of Islam’s foundations against the Jewish

David (00:22:28):
People. It’s like an upbringing.

Steven (00:22:29):
The upbringing, the infidels, the Jews who betrayed their God in the Quran, the first scriptures of Theran, it’s called sur, means scriptures of the cow. That’s what it’s called, sur the cow. And it’s basically Islam’s prophet. He goes into teaching that he actually goes in an airation. He narrates condemning the nation of the Israelites because God blessed them to come out of Egypt. He acknowledges that. He acknowledges their freedom, he acknowledges all that. He acknowledges their god’s chosen people.

Speaker 5 (00:23:05):
But

Steven (00:23:05):
Then he goes into his own narration of becoming the judge, the judge, the lawyer and the warden by condemning them, saying, how dare you, God got you out. And he focused on the story of them putting a cow, worshiping a cow. When Moses disappeared, went to the top of the mountain Sinai to receive the 10 commandments. He comes back, sees them worshiping a golden calf. And in this golden calf experience, he takes that and basically condemns all of Israel and all of the Israelites. And out of that, now Gods washes hand, he’s done with them. So going back to the foundations of their hatred towards the Jewish people in Israel, you ask most Muslims that tell you, our hatred is towards the Zionists within Israel, not necessarily the Jewish people. And they’re speaking if they’re going to carry that position, they need to be more specific and say the politics, they’re against the politics. That’s fine. If you’re against politics of Israel, you have every right to be. But that does not give me or any Arab or any Muslim or any left wing Jew the right to say it’s okay to kill harm or what be it. And it goes back to that is, and I’ll sum up this political answer is this, I asked my Jewish friends or Jewish people we disciple when we got to a point where we have trust, David, I asked them, I say, is, is it okay to kill I’m, I’m going to lay this out in front of us right now. And you guys can use the same thing when you have a pro-Palestinian friends or anti-Israel friends, okay? Pro, pro-Palestinian people doesn’t mean they’re bad.

(00:24:31):
They’re just people that have passion, forced people. They just don’t have all the information.

David (00:24:36):
They see things in their

Steven (00:24:36):
Heart, they the heart and they’re social justice driven stuff. And that’s fine, but you have to base it on facts and so forth. So you want to help people, not to hinder them, to help them. But here’s what the question I posed David, and I’ll be quiet about this political side of things. Is it okay to kill? And most they say, no, it’s not okay to kill. I mean, they have some caveats like in self-defense, the typical stuff. So no, it’s not okay to kill. Then my next question I immediately ask them is when I get to a point of trust in a relationship, I say, is it okay to kill a Jew? And I always tell them, if they hesitated to answer that, then it’s a moral issue. We have a moral issue. If it’s not okay to kill, but you hesitated to answer or you said, yes, it is okay to kill a Jew, or you hesitate to answer that question, then it’s a moral issue. How do you resolve a moral decay? How do you resolve a moral conundrum? How do you resolve a moral gray cloud? The way you resolve a moral gray cloud is bringing in real truth and clarity, and that’s the word of God. That’s the scriptures. And that’s when we’ll get in here in a minute about Israel in the kingdom.

David (00:25:56):
Yeah, so that’s amazing. I love that. The way that you framed that. So now moving from political, now we’re moving into essentially theological. And I’ll talk to many people at our church or many people we’re in a relationship with. And the question will come up, what about the Palestinians? What about the hes? What about the Arab Christians? Because it’s one thing to say, I understand Israel versus terrorists. That makes sense to us in America that’s a little bit more black and white, and then it’s Israel versus Muslim Islam. That one’s harder. But we understand that there’s friction there. What about the Arab Christians? And that’s where people in the church are really confused and hesitant. And I’ll often tell them, the Arab Christians that I’ve met and I’ve gotten to interact with, they’re some of the best people in the world. They’re some of the kindest, most welcoming. And I think that’s true with even a lot of the Arab Muslims. I mean most friendly, most kind, most hospitable. It really does go back to this descendancy of Abraham, the humility and the hospitality.

(00:27:06):
However, I have noticed that many Arab Christians are very locked in on replacement theology. The idea that the church has replaced Israel, the Christians have replaced Israel as God’s chosen people, as God’s the apple of God’s eye. And so even though I can talk with an Arab Christian, and maybe nine out of 10 things we’re super aligned on theologically, but when it gets to Israel, Israel is the stumbling block. And I totally understand it because living in this constant conflict, and maybe they have history of the people from the IDF doing terrible things, or from 1948 Israelis coming in and kicking them out of their home or neighbors that had that experience. So there’s so much tension brought to the topic of Israel. So theologically, what do you see in the Arab Christian community regarding Israel? Is that still very tense? Is there confusion? Is there just downright a veil? Is it something they don’t want to talk about? Or what’s your experience there?

Steven (00:28:14):
David? We have to separate between biblical views and practical political views. I know we are on the same page as, listen, this is more for our listeners listening. We have to separate God’s covenant promises, God’s plan for Israel from the political, why do we have to separate the two? Because one is, it’s a plan, a decree by God towards his promises, towards his people. And there is a thing called the promises to the church that has not replaced God’s promises to Israel or nation of Israel.

Speaker 5 (00:28:59):
Found

Steven (00:28:59):
In Genesis 12, 15, 17, I have yet to meet somebody who can convince me of a replacement theology. Now, they used some at First Bird’s eye view, they use verses where Paul talks about the new covenant. They use some of these scriptures. But you can just, like Jehovah Witnesses, they show you one scripture verse and they convince you in the context of the Jehovah Watch. And you say, wait, wait a minute, let’s go deeper. Let’s, let’s dig into that. And that’s when you realize, wait a minute, it’s not as, there’s

David (00:29:35):
Not a lot of depth here,

Steven (00:29:37):
Just reading it by that. Or even they use scriptures from even within Genesis or in Exodus that I’ll bring a new covenant to you and you got to take that and dissect that and so forth. So I’ve yet to be convinced. So if anything, I’m much more

Speaker 5 (00:29:51):
Convinced

Steven (00:29:52):
That God is a promising covenant keeping God that keeps us promise forever and ever and ever. Now, those are listening who are zionistic in nature. You cannot fall into the danger of loving Israel more than God of Israel.

Speaker 5 (00:30:05):
That’s good.

Steven (00:30:06):
And many Zionist Christians, they forget to pray for the salvation of the Jews.

Speaker 5 (00:30:10):
They

Steven (00:30:10):
Forget to pray for the salvation of Israel. Keep in mind, those of us who are sitting here waiting and watching for the return of Yeshua or their rapture of the church, that will happen until all of Israel saved. Now again, all Israel saved can be translated so many different ways, but at least let’s say everybody in Israel understands the Messiah has come.

(00:30:27):
Whether they believe it or not, we don’t know. But at least the gospel salvation is that gospel has reached you decide what you want to do with that message. So within that scope of realm, David, with bringing the gospel, so we forget many people who love Israel, forget the fact that we must bring the gospel to Israel. We must bring Yeshua to Israel. We must bring the hope, the gospel to the Jewish people and to the Arab people. So thirdly, this is very important. There is enough room in the heart of the Father to love both the Jew and the Arab. Why shouldn’t we? Those listening. You don’t have to love the Jews and hate the Arabs or love the Arabs, hate the Jews.

David (00:31:02):
You don’t have to choose a side.

Steven (00:31:03):
You don’t have to choose a side. The only side you choose is God’s righteous side. The only side you choose is the scripture side, the truth found in scriptures.

David (00:31:12):
Yeah. That’s so good.

Steven (00:31:14):
Anything else? It just becomes a preference.

David (00:31:16):
I’ve had people ask me that have great relationships with their Muslim neighbors or their Arab neighbors, and they’ll say, do I have to choose a side? And I’m always reminded of the scripture where the angel of the Lord, which you can very, very easily theologically say, this is a pre-incarnate son. But regardless, the angel of the Lord comes to Joshua. And Joshua’s response is, who side are you on us or theirs? And the angel’s response is, no,

Steven (00:31:42):
That’s right.

David (00:31:44):
I’m not choosing sides. But you would understand theologically if he was like, what do you mean, Joshua? I’m on your side. I’m the God of Israel. And yet he still doesn’t says, no, no, I’m not choosing. It’s a kingdom.

Steven (00:31:55):
Yeah,

David (00:31:56):
It’s

Steven (00:31:56):
A heavily kingdom vision that God’s beyond that.

David (00:31:59):
But that does frustrate Zionists.

Steven (00:32:01):
It does.

David (00:32:01):
It does. We have to choose a side. Everything in social media has told me I had to choose a side and I have to choose a flag from my profile picture in which 1:00 AM I choosing? And it really does leave us in this political pool rather than the biblical understanding.

Steven (00:32:14):
And I think the only side we need to choose is the biblical concept of what God has to say on 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. In this case, it’s issues. It’s Israel. So to add one more thing to the dilemma of the political kingdom aspect of things,

(00:32:31):
To those who love Israel supporters or perfect Israel, you cannot pray for one or the other. You cannot love one, not the other. Now, what you need to do is you need to find those are closest to you. And that’s a big conundrum. You talked about that here in the last question towards the end. It’s a lot of Christians don’t know what to do when they have Arab friends, Jewish friends. Well, when it comes to building the kingdom, whether how you pray, how you partner, how you give, who do you partner with, who do you sit down with and who do you align with? Well, you find those that are closest aligned to your convictions, to Bible convictions, to the word of God.

(00:33:07):
Find those and you come alongside of ’em. You build alongside of them. But any of them, whether it be Jewish or Arab, if there’s any sense of the division, hatred, animosity in their lingo, you need to put a check in the spirit and address it. Because when you humor, hatred, animosity, rebellion, revenge, calling, good, bad and bad, good or blurring the line gray area, anytime you humor that Satan comes, sits in and it becomes his reclining chair. You don’t want to give room for you as an American, as an Israeli, as a messianic, as a Zionist, as an Arab. If you’re Arab Christian listening to this, or if you’re a Christian who’s pro Arab, listen to this. If you give any room to hatred, animosity and killing like the moral question I asked earlier, then it needs to be a check in your spirit. You need to be checking the spirit of your Jewish friend or your Arab friend. And we have a lot of issues today. It’s cause more division. How is Yeshua going to come, David, if we are condoning and supporting financially, prayerfully, partnering and condoning platforms of people that condone hatred and animosity and killing, where is the unity?

(00:34:16):
Now, I’m not saying, I’m saying don’t compromise. I’m saying the complete opposite. But we need to align ourselves with people that people say, well, as long as they believe in Jesus, it’s set up. No, it’s not. Paul and Barnabas went separate ways because of certain issues within the church. It wasn’t the Israel issue. But at that time, Peter had a lot of issues with some of the disciples, and that’s why he went off himself. We see it in Acts 9, 10, 11. He went off by himself because the journey that Peter took, it took him on a different journey. He struggled. And we see this in the dream that God gave him at Joppa

David (00:34:52):
Acts 10. Yeah,

Steven (00:34:52):
That’s right. The dream God gave him with him, with Cornelius, he struggled with it until he was able to see the full fullness of God’s glory.

Speaker 5 (00:35:00):
Totally.

Steven (00:35:00):
Did he return back And things changed within the church, first century church in Jerusalem. And that’s my 2 cents on the

David (00:35:08):
No, this is good. I want to ask you some three really practical questions just to help our listeners, because you’re somebody who will get asked by Arabs, you’ll get asked by Jews, you’ll get asked by Christians. So I think it’s the question that many our listeners have probably been asked or are probably afraid to be asked. So I’m going to give you a couple different scenarios. Scenario one, Arab, Palestinian, maybe Muslim maybe. But someone who identifies as Arab or Palestinian says, are you pro-Israel? I heard you talking about are you pro-Israel? What’s your response?

Steven (00:35:49):
I tell I’m pro Bible. I’m a bist. I’m not a Zionist. I’m a bist. Being aist allows me to stay on the side of God. His promises and his covenant. It’s like saying, are you pro-American? Yeah, you, David, you’re pro-American. Doesn’t mean you support everything America does.

Speaker 5 (00:36:10):
Exactly.

Steven (00:36:11):
Same thing. I’m a liberalist I, I’m pro-Israel in the sense of I believe in existence. I believe they’re people group. I believe God’s has an everlasting covenant, but I believe there’s a lot of things need to change. One of ’em is October 7th. October 7th is a horrific act of terrorism done on to human beings, to civilians in their home, delivering so forth. Any pro-Palestinian using October 7th as a stepping stone to say, this is freedom fighting. Is it? Idiot is a person that has zero moral values and no pro-Palestinian, no Palestinian today in Bethlehem, who is common sense that I’ve spoken to

Speaker 5 (00:36:51):
Who

Steven (00:36:51):
Stand up publicly. They even are laughing. Some of the foreigners, some of the westerners who are writing on campuses, supporting some of the things, Hamas. And they actually, Arabs, Muslims and Christians are laughing at some of the things that are being said in America because many of them say what was done was not right. If you want to fight for Palestinian, cause that’s fine, but that’s not the way to do it. Biblically, we might not align with it, but do it. But October 7th is not the way, and I want to add this very important can Israel, I get asked a lot, are you pro Israel and so forth. So a second question I get asked a lot, David, is do you condemn Israel killing innocent civilians in Gaza?

David (00:37:28):
That was the next one. Yeah.

Steven (00:37:29):
No, nobody condensed that. I mean, nobody in their right mind

David (00:37:33):
Condemns it. Or

Steven (00:37:34):
Sorry, condones. Condones it. Yeah, condones the Israel killing innocent civilians. Now people you can go in are pro-ISIS, Israel friends, you can go in all day and give reasons. Well, yeah, but Hamas hides behind blah, blah, blah. Yes. But you need to acknowledge there’s suffering. There’s hurting. Innocent civilians are dying. They’re killing. Can Israel do better? A hundred percent. I’ve said it to, I’m not going to mention many the top leaders in the Israeli government. I said, Israel can and needs to do better. We cannot, cannot belittle Israel’s moral values and standards down to a level of Well, yeah, but they’re finding Hamas. No, no, no. I call Israel to a higher standard. I call Israel to a higher moral standard. And those are bringing Israel down to level of Hamas. We’re doing the wrong approach. Or you listening to me, you’re doing the wrong approach.

Speaker 5 (00:38:25):
Don’t

Steven (00:38:25):
Bring Israel down. Call it as it is. Israel can do better than it needs to do better

Speaker 5 (00:38:29):
When

Steven (00:38:29):
Israel hits the church, whether it be intentional by accident with a missile that happened a month ago when settlers attack a church that happened just two weeks ago in Israel. The rock has hit Gaza Church, a couple of weeks of Catholic church. We need to call it out. Israel can do better and needs to do better if somebody did it intentionally. They need to be held responsible. Do I believe Israel attacks churches intentionally? I don’t believe it,

Speaker 5 (00:38:51):
But

Steven (00:38:51):
It happened. We need to call it out and acknowledge it. So to give the card blanc to either side

Speaker 5 (00:38:56):
Is

Steven (00:38:57):
Not right, but also to bring Israel down, to put ’em on the same level as homage. You’re doing Israel disservice.

Speaker 5 (00:39:03):
So

Steven (00:39:03):
That’s the second thing is I tell people, innocent civilians are dying on both sides of the fence. You can justify. You can say they’re innocent. Some celebrated, yes. 2.2 million in Gaza, David, 2.2 million people in Gaza, 3000 cowards attacked Israel. Some say 4,000, some say 5,000 something. Let’s say 8,000 cowards attacked Israel. October 7th. We still have 2.9, 2.19996 who didn’t attack? And they say a couple hundred thousand knew something’s happening. So why didn’t the other couple hundred thousand attack? Well, because they knew that’s not the answer. That’s not the way they knew. That’s not the way forward. But three to 4,000 cowards did attack is October 7th. So that means one or 2.1, 9, 9 3. If you’re better than numbers, then you can do the math. Chose not to. That tells us

David (00:39:55):
Something. I know there was a poll done in the West Bank, and this was right after October 7th, and it was something like 80% of the Palestinians in the West Bank were October 7th. And so there was the sentiment of, okay, even like you said, even if they didn’t attack, they were celebrating. They looked at this as kind of like an Intifada, like this is a revolution. And even people today, pro-Palestinian will say, well, the whole reason they attacked is because of the occupation. The occupation has been doing this. So has that changed in the West Bank? Do you think that number has gone down? Obviously now with the war going on for a long time now, is it still, would you say a majority of people are October 7th or still pro Ada or that this is revolution, we need to rise up? Is there more of a half and half? What was your perspective

Steven (00:40:46):
There? That’s a great question, brother. So in Bethlehem, we used to see riots every other week before October 7th, literally almost every week. Rather, we could see riots in Bethlehem. We haven’t seen any riots in almost a year and a half, the whole era of killing and killing and revolution. That’s dying. It’s dying. The 80% statistic thing, people were more of the, first of all, we got to ask who did the statistics? Who did they ask? What villages, what they, I am, any statistics come out of Israel? I am the top hundred, top nine, 9% skeptical on both sides. Because you could go to 10 families in one neighborhood, ask that same question. I can take you a mile down the road to different 10 families behind the scenes on tv, on the media. They can tell you one thing.

David (00:41:38):
Everyone has the narrative they’re trying to

Steven (00:41:39):
Push. Oh my goodness, to

David (00:41:40):
Push.

Steven (00:41:40):
And everybody’s mesmerized with the idea of October 7th. But in reality, most would tell you that’s not what we want. Again, it all depends where you’re doing this.

David (00:41:52):
Totally. And you’ve said even this morning, we were talking about how Bethlehem is different than Gaza. It’s different than other places in the West

Steven (00:42:00):
Bank. Even in Gaza. In Gaza, yeah. Again, the first 45 days, people were mesmerized as a romantic idea of Hamas soldiers. Even some of the young Christians in Bethlehem were like Hamas. They’re like, they’re freedom fighters.

David (00:42:11):
They’re fighting for us.

Steven (00:42:12):
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And it wasn’t until you just talk sense into ’em. Who are they fighting for? Do you want the blood of those babies, those women, those innocent, the innocent I’m talking about If you want to call cause of war, call a war, go fight against soldiers, go to bases. If you want to really do a real war, then call a war, right? Hamas call a war, but not to attack innocent civilians. Now, the people on the other side might say, oh, pastor, that’s a low ball because they attack civilians in Gaza and so forth. But again, it never will stop. It’s going to keep on and going and going, two rights, two wrongs don’t make a right and vice versa. And of course there is a higher moral standard that we must hold Israel to. Some might call it not fair. It’s not fair because it’s the whole thing. We’re dealing against people that have zero moral values and we have to call Israel to higher value and not to drop ’em down. And it is just to go back to that last point of bringing all this into perspective, the story of what’s going on there. We have to call the Arabs to a higher standard and we have to call Israel to a higher standard because we can’t have them step down to a lower level.

David (00:43:24):
That’s so good. Thank you for treading these murky waters. This is super helpful. The last question I want to ask just practically to give people maybe some verbiage or ways to think about things. The question right now happening in the United States, in the Evangelical church is this big debate, should Christians support Israel? Because you have one side, and this was kind of the epitome of this, was in this Tucker Carlson Ted Cruz interview where Ted Cruz was like, listen, I was told as a kid to bless Israel, and if you bless Israel, you’ll be blessed. And if you curse Israel, you’d be cursed. And then Tucker Carlson’s response is the political state of Israel, BB Netanyahu’s Israel. Are you saying that as a Christian, I need to support the political state of Israel? And dead Cruz kind of goes back, not the political state, just the Israel, just people. The people of Israel. And so this launched debates. Every podcast was talking about it. Every church leader is talking about it. Should Christians support Israel? So if someone was to come and talk to you, maybe from America, pastor of a church, Hey, should I tell my church that we support Israel? What would you say?

Steven (00:44:35):
Well, look, that’s a loaded question. Has so many different connotations to it. Are you supporting the look? He asked good questions. Tucker cars, he has great questions. And rightfully so. Unfortunately, I don’t think that the person answering it was the right person to answer it.

David (00:44:52):
Yeah, he didn’t have much more depth than just, there’s

Steven (00:44:54):
No substance. There’s no depth of what be it. Have you ever been asked that question, David? Hug? Of course. What do you say

David (00:45:01):
Normally? So if someone says, should we support Israel? I’ll often say kind of like you, let’s look at the Bible. Because if we’re going to say that the modern state of Israel is not biblical Israel, that’s a hard jump. What do we mean? Where was the chain broken? That these are fake Israel, fake conundrum. Jews conundrum. Okay, so we can establish first biblically that the Jews in Israel are the same as the Jews in the Bible. We can track Genesis 12, and like you say, which most people don’t know, and Genesis 15 and Genesis 17, there’s a continuation of that covenant. It’s not just Abraham,

Steven (00:45:36):
Even Mary, the mother of Jesus. She goes into that and acts as well. And then Luke. Yep.

David (00:45:41):
And then I’ll often biblically again, let’s talk about Israel. Jacob was Israel and Jacob was not the most moral person in the Bible. If we’re going to pattern our life after someone in the Bible, few people are choosing Jacob.

Steven (00:45:58):
That’s right.

David (00:45:58):
And yet God chooses him, changes his name to Israel. That becomes the name of the people that God covenants himself to. He refers to himself as the God of Israel. And yet that doesn’t mean that morally, I have to get behind every decision. Jacob makes Jacob’s kind of a shady guy at times. He’s lying to his blind father. He’s tricking his brother. And so a lot of people are confused with this idea of, oh, so if you support Israel, you think that the IDF going into Gaza and killing innocent, you think that’s good? And it’s like, whoa, whoa, whoa. I don’t think lying to my blind father is good. And I’m never going to say that. That’s good. Again, that’s morally it’s not true. However, I have to come out and say, although lying to your blind father is morally wrong, I have to be able to take a step back and say, but biblically, God still chose him.

Steven (00:46:52):
That’s right.

David (00:46:52):
And was faithful to him. And I don’t understand that. It doesn’t make sense to me. Do

Steven (00:46:56):
You have higher value, moral value than God? That’s if you do, then you have a

David (00:46:59):
Problem. And he didn’t ask me. God didn’t say, what do you think about Jacob? You want to vote yes or no? It’s like he chose him. And if we’re going to say, well, but the Jewish people are a secular nation, or Jewish people don’t believe in Jesus, or the Jewish people turned against God, or whatever claim will launch the Jewish people, I often think, yeah, have you read the ak? Have you read the Hebrew scriptures? They’re

Steven (00:47:21):
All the major prophets, David from Solomon to

David (00:47:23):
Yeah, like

Steven (00:47:24):
Abraham and Moses.

David (00:47:25):
If you’re telling me, because the majority of Israel is in that, God’s forsaken them. Have you read the Old Testament? I mean, that is the story. The majority of Israel is always going against God, and yet God remains faithful to them for the sake of their ancestors, for the sake of the same as

Steven (00:47:44):
The church, David.

David (00:47:45):
Yeah, we’re

Steven (00:47:46):
Very quick. God doesn’t return his back on the

David (00:47:49):
Church.

Steven (00:47:50):
When a pastor sins or when a lay person in pew sins God’s heart. Righteousness is always, I know the plans for you to bless

Speaker 5 (00:48:00):
You

Steven (00:48:00):
To prosper you. Christ was when Christ said that. Even while we were at sinners, Christ died on the cross for our sins. So God always knows the ongoing struggle with overcoming sin and so forth, but yet still

Speaker 5 (00:48:13):
God’s

Steven (00:48:14):
Plans, God’s purpose stays the same. He just wants, he calls us to a higher calling. He calls us to choose good and not evil, to do right and not wrong. And in these morals, sculpts, I say, I am a biblical covenant believer. I believe God’s covenant with the Jewish people. It’s an everlasting covenant. Genesis 12, 15, 17. And of course, we see it also like I mentioned with Luke and the scriptures of Matthew. But within these two

Speaker 5 (00:48:43):
Realms,

Steven (00:48:43):
I say, Israel is not perfect. Can Israel do better? A hundred percent. Does Israel need to do better? A hundred percent. But on that, I stand on God’s promises. I believe God has a plan for the Arab people. Arabs exist. Arabs are in Israel. Arabs are in the Palestinian communities. God has given the sovereign right for Israel to be there. He’s given also the sovereign blessing for Israel to tell the Palestinians stay in the land and

Speaker 5 (00:49:07):
Live,

Steven (00:49:08):
Both exist. We’re not going to get rid of either one. I always tell my Arab friends, you’re not going to get rid of the Jews. I tell the Jews, you’re not getting rid of the Arabs. It’s time to see God’s value, God’s potential. If you know better than God, then find a way to get up in heaven and sit in God’s place. Under that moment comes, we have to trust that God’s allowed the Arabs and the Jews to be in the land,

Speaker 5 (00:49:28):
And

Steven (00:49:28):
God’s got a plan for both of them. We have to push and promote both of them to get back to their first love. We have to push both of them to come back to the truth. And then on that, we start to build a better

David (00:49:37):
Tomorrow. Yeah. That’s so good. Yeah. I think about the Lord’s plan is to take these two distinctions and make unity. And really the two distinctions I see, male, female, Jew, Gentile, he wants to take male and female. And under a covenant they become one. They’re still male, female, but they’re unified. And he wants Jew and Gentile to come under a new covenant that Jesus came to bring, and they become unified. They’re still distinct, but they’re unified. And we get a real picture. It’s almost the microscope version of that in Israel, because you have Jew and Arab coming together to be unified in one new man. When it happens, it’s beautiful. But of course, the enemy wants that to continue to be this divide. And to kind of finish this idea of do we support Israel or should church support Israel? The reality that I see biblically is God calls Israel his firstborn, his special treasure, the apple of his eye, the one who he holds the covenant with Gentiles. We are grafted into that covenant, where as Romans eight adopted, Romans 11 grafted. It’s this same truth, different analogy. And God, at the end of Romans 11, Paul says, and even those opposed to the gospel are his beloved current tense are his beloved for the sake of their ancestors.

Steven (00:51:02):
That’s right.

David (00:51:02):
And so this idea of why would you support Israel? Why should this church support Israel? It’s

Steven (00:51:06):
A mystery

David (00:51:07):
If Israel is doing X, y, z. And I think about from a father’s perspective, from a father’s heart. If my firstborn wanted nothing to do with me, she was far away. She ran away from home. She throws darts every morning at a picture of me. And someone asked me, you still love her? Yeah, I love her. Why? She’s constantly hating you, spitting on a picture of you running away from you. Well, that’s an easy answer for any good father. She’s my daughter. My first

Steven (00:51:38):
We’ll change that.

David (00:51:38):
No. And if someone was to say to me as the father and my daughter who hates me, she moved to California and she’s going to this university, and someone who wasn’t or maybe was my second born or my adopted child or whatever, whatever analogy you want to use, comes to me as the father and says, Hey, I’m actually going to California. I’m going to go to the same university. I’m going to make sure that she’s okay. I’m going to protect her. I’m going to pray for her. If anyone tries to mess with her, I’m going to defend

Steven (00:52:07):
Her. That’s part of the Father, David.

David (00:52:08):
I would be like, thank you. I wouldn’t be like, no, don’t defend her. Don’t pray for her. She hates me. Any good father. And again, as Jesus says, compared to the good Father, I’m evil compared to how good he is, all of us are. But any good father would know. I would love that person that says, Hey, I’m going to go bless your daughter. I’m going to make sure she’s okay. I’m going to check in on her. I’m going to be praying for her. I’m going to be endeared towards that person. So why should the church support Israel? And I know that’s a loaded question, but why should the church love Israel, pray for Israel? Because God loves them. They’re his firstborn. His heart’s

Steven (00:52:42):
Touched. David, can I add one more thing on that, please? You nailed it on the head. And I came from Israel, came back from Israel just two weeks ago, and I’ve been to three churches, and I’ve done a couple conferences in the last two weeks. This trip is mostly right now sitting around, sitting down with individuals because we’re working on this project in Bethlehem. But here’s what I wanted to say. I’ve never seen so many people who love Israel so confused and so distraught than ever before, especially with this whole October 7th thing and the war in Gaza. I think Satans right now is playing a good card on using the emotional social justice issue of what Israel is doing in Gaza amongst other places against the inner moral struggle conundrum amongst Christians who love Israel, who are struggling. I am telling you, the last 15, 16 days as my feet touched America at the ground, as I’m traveling, speaking in churches and conferences, I’ve never had so many Christians who, there’s no doubt they love Israel. They just can’t, don’t know how to answer these questions.

David (00:53:50):
It was easier five years ago. It was more

Steven (00:53:51):
Black and white. It was much easier. It was black and white, and I’m helping these people answer these questions. And how do you support Israel according to Genesis 12, 15, 17? That’s what I wanted to hear you as a David who leads this program. I want to hear you. What’s your thoughts? What’s your answer to that? And I’ve never been asked so many questions on this issue, and I’ve been helping people, pastor, I love Israel, but how do I defend Israel when they do want two different Well, you support the good condemn the bad. If you’re a Zionist Christian afraid to condemn the bad,

Speaker 5 (00:54:29):
Then

Steven (00:54:29):
Those are opposing Israel are going to call you. And I just poster child kids, they’re going to call us bastards.

David (00:54:38):
Extremists.

Steven (00:54:39):
Extremists. That’s what they call us ambassadors to Israel, because we don’t know who our father is. And we’re so confused and no, no, no. Excuse the language by the way, but that’s what they call us. I’m telling what’s in the streets. Well, when Israel does good, you call the good in Israel. When Israel does bad, you acknowledge it because those are watching who are opposed. Israel, who are staunchly, and they oppose it very well. David, there’s people out there opposing Israel. Tucker Carlson isn’t really a standard to opposing Israel. He’s just a puppet to what people feed him via

Speaker 5 (00:55:06):
Email.

Steven (00:55:08):
But there’s people out there defending Israel that are very, very strong opposing Israel, and they make some good valid points.

Speaker 5 (00:55:13):
Anybody,

Steven (00:55:13):
Any Zionist sending in front of the supporting Israel, not acknowledging the wrongdoings and the suffering that Israel has caused is a fool. Because then everything you say that is righteous, right? And biblical,

David (00:55:28):
It’s thrown out,

Steven (00:55:28):
Is thrown, thrown out the

David (00:55:30):
Window. You’re clearly just a hundred percent biased.

Steven (00:55:32):
So as a Christian who loves Israel,

David (00:55:35):
I’m

Steven (00:55:35):
Talking about to those listening. So my answer to this brother, he was weeping in the lobby. This was three days he was weeping, said, pastor, I love Israel. I don’t know what to tell my family. He comes from a Latino background. So there’s sympathetic to social justice causes, especially right now in America with a lot of the ice situation and so forth. That’s not my subject, but so there’s a lot of emotions. How do you, I said it’s simple. You love and support, promote the good that Israel’s doing, the bad that Israel’s doing, acknowledge it and acknowledge that they can do better and they need to do better. By doing so, you have a moral voice. It doesn’t mean that those opposing Israel are going to come waving your flag

David (00:56:20):
Just to start agreeing with you,

Steven (00:56:22):
But at least they start saying, you have a good moral compass.

David (00:56:25):
Or at least you’re emotionally honest or

Steven (00:56:26):
You’re

David (00:56:27):
Intellectually honest,

Steven (00:56:28):
Intellectually, emotionally, morally, you’re choosing God’s righteousness over my preference. And what I say to that, that’s that’s been my answer, is support the good not so good and condemn when they’re doing bad, say, you can do better. That’s

David (00:56:44):
Wrong. I remember I got asked this question last night on a Zoom actually, and I was reminded of my boss, Nick, who helped launch this podcast. He was the director of the Center for Israel and still is at Gateway and has this huge heart for Israel and the Jewish people and relationships. And I asked him on this podcast right after the war broke had started, and it was a couple of weeks in and it’s when the first time you started to see pictures in Gaza of kids getting pulled out of the rebel and the Zionists that we were in a relationship with again that we love, but we’re very much, it was easy to be one sided before October 7th. Didn’t want to comment on it. What do you think about the kids in Gaza getting killed? And he said, it was the opening of the podcast. He said, if you watch a video of a Palestinian kid or a dead Palestinian getting pulled out of rubble and that doesn’t shake you affect you break your heart, something’s wrong with you. And it was so refreshing for that compassion to come through someone who could have probably been labeled a Zionist or an extreme Zionist, but emotionally, intellectually being able to say no, that is absolutely heartbreaking, terrible. If that doesn’t shake you that you’re wrong with you.

Steven (00:58:13):
And there should be no, but after that there should be no, but it’s hama. We need to be able to acknowledge it and leave it and say, Israel needs to do better and can do better. Now there’s a conversation to debate later who’s fault it is, who started it? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 5 (00:58:30):
But

Steven (00:58:30):
You need to, we need to stop. There’s no, but anytime on tv somebody says, but Hamas uses him a shield. We all know that. Pro Palestinians know that.

David (00:58:41):
But if it was your kid and someone says, but

Steven (00:58:45):
Exactly, there’s no but in there. Leave it has his say. I’m sorry it’s happening.

David (00:58:50):
Yeah,

Steven (00:58:50):
It’s terrible. It’s terrible. Israel needs to do better. And I’ve said this face-to-face

David (00:58:55):
And

Steven (00:58:55):
On phone calls, on Zoom calls with Israel’s top officials. Israel needs to do better and they know they can do better and they need to. And I think those Christians who support Israel, we need to acknowledge that face value that we need to call people to God’s righteousness. I will never say Israel. Well, Hamas does this first. No, I’m not going to lower Israel standard. Again, those who are listening, I say Israel standard. I’m talking about our Judaic Christian root values. Our faith stems from Judaism. Anybody that tells you Jesus is a Palestinian, Jesus was a Muslim and is an idiot. Again, he’s a deceiving person, okay? Our faith stems from Judaic root foundation. So by me calling the nation of Israel to hire, calling to hire call, I’m doing our faith justice because our faith stems on Judaic roots foundation. So I’m not going to allow my Judaic roots, our faith stems from Judaic backgrounds

Speaker 5 (00:59:51):
To

Steven (00:59:52):
Step it down to a level of terrorism and so forth and say, well, if they’re doing it, we should do it to it. No, no, no. That’s the worst of, I’ve seen many top pro-Israel, pro zionistic debaters use that example. And that’s wrong. You’re lowering a higher value to a lower value, and that’s not the case.

David (01:00:09):
Yeah, that’s

Steven (01:00:10):
So good. I rest my case on this specific issue. That’s

David (01:00:12):
So good. Well, I know we have to go, but I would love for you to pray for us because maybe this conversation is stirring up more questions or it’s wanting people to go deeper. And at the end of the day, we can never answer all the questions. We can never have all the answers, but we want to have the father’s heart,

(01:00:33):
And that is his heart for Israel, his heart for his people, the ones he has a covenant with, even in the midst of disobedience and his heart for Ishmael, his heart for the Arab people, his heart, for those who are suffering. And those things do not need to be mutually exclusive. They do exist in his heart. Like you said, he has enough love in his heart for both people, and he has enough in his heart to hold the covenant that he’s made with Israel and the suffering going on, and his heart can break for a Jewish person that’s far away from him and an Arab who’s far away from him and wants to bring them together in unity. So will you just pray with us?

Steven (01:01:08):
Yeah, my honor, brother, I have any Father, thank you for platforms like these, David and just this podcast here, Lord, as they really want to bring your truth into the conversation, to the equation. I thank you for the gateway community, the family, Lord, with all the struggles that the Christians are going through right now with politics, with internal politics, church politics, internal divide and divides on issues like politics and Israel and the Palestinian situation, even internal politics with the United States, borders and ice and everything. Lord, within all this, I pray, Lord, that we are moral value and our moral standards, our moral scale is always an only built on your holy spirit’s wisdom based on the one and only truth. And that’s your word. That’s your word. Thank you, Lord. The word of God, the Ach, the scripture is the Bible.

Speaker 5 (01:02:10):
Thank you,

Steven (01:02:10):
Lord. Thank you for your word. Thank you for the logos, Lord, both the fleshly logos, and thank you Lord for the logos that’s in our the word. Lord, I pray in your name that you release your angels around this podcast and all of its previous recording, today’s recording, and any future recording. Thank you. I pray for the foundation that’s built on the gateway family, the gateway church community, and all of its staff, it’s leadership. I pray, Lord, that you raise up a new generation.

(01:02:37):
A generation that calls good, good and evil. Evil, a generation that doesn’t call things because of their own intuition, because of their own benefits or their own emotional scale, but they call things and not out of selfish, righteous call, but they call things based on your word in your scriptures. I pray, Lord, for a new leadership, Lord, that a new heart of young leaders that are based on scriptures and truth, I pray for the peace of Israel. I pray for the peace of the Arab, the Palestinian community, the Palestinian areas, the Palestinian people. I pray for the Jewish people. I pray for the salvation of the Jew to the Jew first Lord, then to the Arabs, then to the gentile nations. I pray, Lord, that those that love Israel would see your heart and your compassion in things. I pray for those that love Arabs to be drawn to your righteousness, to your truth, to biblical moral value scale and calling good, good, evil, evil.

(01:03:33):
Not to blur the line because of the emotional agenda or social agenda. I pray, Lord, for revival in this region in Texas. Lord, I pray for people like David and others. Lord, I pray for my friend Lord, with Kyle, with time to revival as they are maneuvering these conversations among people. I pray, Lord, that I conclude with this. Lord, I conclude with this as my Messianic brother Tom Berkowitz always says, the forbidden peace treaty. It’s the only answer to Israel and the Palestinian dilemma and that forbidden peace treaty. That’s the gospel. So broad, bring the Gospel into Israel. Use us to bring, we are your horsemen, your mule, to bring the gospel back to Israel, the Forbidden Priest Treaty in Yeshuas, then we pray. Amen. Amen. Amen.

David (01:04:20):
Amen. Thank you so much. Well, thank you for tuning in to another episode of Covenant and Conflict Podcast. We will see you next time.